PermafLOat

Silly post

Fold pre UTG. Tough to make money with these hands IP, even tougher OOP.

Seems profitable to me.

And to the assumption that AA would 3bet. Lots of tag-passives won't 3bet "ugly" AA here.

Fold.

At best, if 5 villains have middle to bottom of ranges. You are about ~16% which is almost breakeven.

If someone has the other AA you are like 5-6%, meaning you aren't getting a good price.

Bad AA aren't auto-tickets to GettingItIn Preflop. The more multiway the worse bad AA perform.

Yes they are the best pair pre, but how often do you see a PAIR taking down the pot multiway in PLO?

Just curious as to when discussing the top set TT hand you say that "betting a smaller amount and not INDUCING a shove" would be disastrous.

I'm assuming your thoughts are that players would feel more confident with a bluff that is for their whole stack, therefore bluff more often when able to go all-in.

Our goal when betting here should be to charge draws and allow dominated hands to make disastrously aggressive actions (check-raise).

So my thought is that weak c-betting (50-70%pot) in spots like these vs aggressive opponents could be superior since our holding should be perceived as much weaker (AA,KK,Tx) which i think can be a more powerful inducer. Also I think a near POT-sized bet might make weak flush/gutter and pair/double-gutters fold assuming you have the Hearts covered or smashed the flop in someway. These weak draws might get frisky if they sense weakness in you sizing and try to fold out your hand.

This weak c-bet can disguise our strength, and possible be the inducer to making bottom set or two pairs to commit to the hand.

With top set we generally want to bet/action-reopened/ship.

Though vs passive opponents a weak c-bet would not charge draws enough.

So... with that philosphy...isn't this site, or any material teaching people to play better, inappropriate?

The concepts learned to play GTO shortstacked PLO applies to 100bb, even aggressive deep PLO when SPR can be very low on turns in 3bet/4bet pots, as well as tournaments... I agree fully with Jukebox.

Sounds like you hate it because you don't understand it...therefore you don't know how to combat it when a proficient ss sits in your 100bb game.

I think you need to give the action more thoroughly...this post is very hard to understand the hand history.

Still, imo even a NUT wrap is drastically diminished in equity by the presence of FD in a multiway pot...take non NUT wrap... And you might be drawing dead to a chop.

Btw, you don't have 8 nut outs...K and 8 are the only cards that give you a nut straight, but K ♥ and 8 ♥ put a flush out there...and you are holding an 8. At most you have 6 nut outs depending on the suit of your 8.

Fold

Never leading river as played, i think we can remove underfulls since he most likely would have played set of 5s/4s aggressively on wet board here... That leaves only busted draws and you said he's not tricky so weak-lead to induce large bluff is out of the question.

Check to induce bluff.

I don't like to give up control post flop by x/c flop and turn...even though doing so keeps villains range bluffy and on the flop you are protecting against being blown off your hand.... Playing your hand this way does NOTHING to narrow down his range and this is how we exert our edge the most...by narrowing down villains range as much as possible and playing accordingly.

By playing flop and turn the way you did, you will constantly be putting yourself in spots like this that its a huge guessing game.

Instead, i think you've flopped plenty of equity to be cbetting here and/or taking control on turn by leading.

AS TO THE RIVER... Initially i am very surprised ppl are suggesting a call. I think i am capable to pot-value bet as weak as Q9 here aiming at bluff catchers, as your line can allow him to remove all sets from your range and very unlikely you have a straight that you played in such a passive manner on a super wet board. Really how many of your 3bet OOP hands have 23 or 73 in it??? Now I'm not saying he's sizing river Vbets with Q9 as full pot very often.

I think overall... Im folding this marginal "bluffcatching" river spot, and moving on to the next hand pissed that i played the hand like i did (flop + turn) to allow my self to get to river with so little idea as to what my opponent has.

Mississippi means any position may re straddle...and action starts to the left of the biggest re straddle.

If he's low aggro on flop... Most likely not a gii spot...but at the same time if he has AK he should fear nothing so should always flat your raise to let you hang yourself on bluffs or underfulls.

Underfulls can be marginal OOP vs competent villains, but IP vs fish its a value hand. I think here we should make it $20-25 on the flop and ship most turns. Full pot seems to be turning our hand into a bluff since flop nut boat is also the true NUT boat AAAKK and most Auuu won't draw.

I think you can get away with a relatively small bet in tournament play....maybe someone with more plo-ment exp. can comment here.... 875?

I feel a cbet is slightly superior to check...as played with sb calling also...its a fold. Save your chips because one of them has at least spades which drastically diminishes your hand equity and its a tourney.(more reason i like cbet/than check flop)

I'm not so sure this is a defend pre.

I really instinctually hate c/f river here but understand what you say that there's not a lot of hands he's bluffing here. And he could be checking back flop with Q or K high non paired spades.

Are you only folding river cuz his sizing? Because if you are c/f to most any bets... Leading river is far superior imo.

As i read, i asked myself "you whiffed the rather dry flop, why didn't you bet it?" Completely forgetting OP question...so my natural instinct is to bet the flop as its an easy b/f and there are zero miracle turns... Only decent turns like K ♥ or Q ♥

Now say flop is T64...Id be more inclined to check... More BD draws since any broadway gives you str8 draw or Str8 draw/p as well as the higher card value hitting opponents range more.

X/f turn...worst card in the deck that completes the most str8 (6<7<9=4)
Agree with betting all Broadway's and 8 5 2 3. Im b/f the 8 and 5

K is an unholy card - i typed "ugly" which autocorrected to unholy???but fitting i guess

Agree check/ship any ♥ , fish love to stab here with their two pair or str8 when the flush comes in and you check, and they ll self-commit call off with most flushes.

Im curious as to those arguments for flatting flop?

Curious as to how you decide to label him a "bum hunter"?

It's really gross you both go BD nut/2nd nut... But i still think river is a bet since you will miss out on a lot of value vs straights.

"it sounds ridiculous but i may be able to fold against this particular villain since im not sure if hes capable of bluff raising without the nf blocker" if this is so, i don't think a fold sounds crazy.

I think highly analytical players tend to give other players too much credit for finding and executing bluff spots...just because he is one of the top winners doesn't mean he got there by bluffing all the time.

And that's why I'm curious as to why you label him as a bum hunter. Imo bum hunters are more passive in nature and wait for sure things....like the nuts rather than aggressively take lines to maximize their overall edge by raise-bluffing rivers for stacks.

Would you agree that since our hand has such decent equity vs his jamming range and we'd call off anyway, that we should beef up our bluff to pot ($31.26) to maximize FE, price out sets and weak 2p/nnFD? Leaving us with $14.39 on river that almost seems less bluff when we stick it in?

Cbet makes the hand play easier...your FD sucks 4way but helps along with the non nut OESD vs sets and 2p.

Bet flop

Flopped set or value bet AA or A3....bluffs

I think this should be 4b pre and called off. For stack sizes

As played... Im leading flop with KK blocker

river in a vacuum... If he's never calling the bet with a set then yes it's too thin since you are giving him a free roll on you river bet. But at same time for balance purpose, if you check back this river you are polarizing your river bets to bluffs or nuts...which closes out opportunity in future to bluff rivers often but opens the door to start merging to value bet super thin if you think he catches onto this....

All only applicable if opponent is paying this close attention...which i think we should ignore in this situation...

Thus... Definitely value bet here... Play around with smaller sizing on river ~1/3 pot

Rock straddle is...winner straddles $10 next hand and action starts the left of the rock...unless someone re straddles ... Then action starts left of the highest straddle.

So if its 1k cap with rock straddle $10 are u considering this a true 100bb cap game? Even though by playing tight most orbits you will only commit sb + bb ($5 + $5)?

I do agree shorter stack (<50bb) makes his immediate right most profitable since we will negate his post flop position many times by getting most/all of our stack in pf or with flop SPR < 1. But this also causes use to play a higher variance style by only pushing PF edge and losing out on post flop edge...which imo is the biggest edge to be had.

And deeper > 100bb i agree that having 2-3 players between us and the target is ideal.
This negates some of the "always UTG pf" and when target has ultimate position (button CO HJ) we will be in the blinds or UTG....positions that we should be playing tight ANYWAYS so we don't give up as much, because target's best positions coincide with our worst positions.

I do see it being difficult to trying to get a large portion of a 1k stack in pf in this game even if its 5-5-10-20 when restraddled. And say i sit his right and 2-3 ppl call his $20 i can only pot for ~$80-$130 depending on blinds. And now if just he calls...im playing 87% of my stack post flop OOP! With an SPR ~3-4. NOT IDEAL

I think your turn x/r range has too many FD so I feel checking river is out of the question...he should be checking back all str8s (except with As)

So I like a blocker-bet sizing that can induce a spazz bluff or call from Str8s/smaller flush...and I think ~$360-420 is the right amount. Make it too small and he might see your intentions.

Maybe playing with you remaining stack size could create some psychological inclination to perceive it as a bluff...$377.18 or $377.19 leaving your stack at $1,000 or $999.99

I think the most important things about the river sizing are

• to give your opp perceived FE vs you with his bluffs

• callable by bluff catchers...str8s and lower flushes.

How about bottom of your range in relation to board texture?

On straightening and/or flushing boards this doesn't come into play because even non-nut str8 or non-nut flush can get action from higher draws (FD or boat-draw) or lower str8/flush.

But in PLO when the board pairs...those higher draws are drastically minimized(higher boat)...or are 1-2 outers (quads, str8flush or Overpair) which don't draw vs most bets.

(u=undercard to T, not sure correct syntax: please correct me)

On A-A-T board, A-u-u-u is going to have a hard time facing a lot of action. Although on the flop this is not a true "bluff" since we are ahead, but say the turn boats him with a 4. We are now behind to 1out but hold 2/3 T needed to make the nut full house.

"decided that if i check he might actually bluff once"

This seems to strengthen his flop check back range. I think from his check back and your sizing makes it a disciplined fold... You seem to commit yourself...all the more reason he's less likely to be bluffing.

" if i check i can get value maybe from a turn that he decides to call or ship as a semibluff."

^ I think turn it's easier to get turn value by checking to induce a cold bluff rather than betting to induce a reship bluff...if checked through river value lead.

if you decide to lead turn for value and/or inducing bluff ships...I think a smaller sizing like 60 would be more correct. The less committed you seem the more perceived FE from opp's viewpoint.

"the reason we bet (flop) is that ppl in general never really bluff if u check here"
"super aggro bluffing in bad spots"
Only super aggro ppl will start bluff on flop which IS a bad spot...
A normal human being would merge their line with nutty lines by waiting for the turn...and two checks. More reason if flop is checked...so should be the turn,seems if he was going to bluff.,.you would have gotten it from him at flop.

Dry flop?? Just cuz no FD? There's still two wraps out there. Also i think based off of the flop line...you could give him Aces up hands.. Esp. aces up with gutshot.

In position i love the flop flat, disguises your hand and forces him to continue all bluffs blank turn (6-9's)

Turn is a check back with plan to call off most sizings and value bet to a river check aimed at A5.