FireMax213

Thank you for your kind help along with all the information/advise you have provided. I wish you all the best, good luck!!

yes

Are you check/shipping all your top hands?? What is bottom hands for check/calling (is it an option..;)?  I guess you can't barrel Ac, Ad that way... Are these bluff combos you are getting/betting on the river (x/c on turn)?

We don't need to 3b this hand.  We can realize also that Flop was almost a dream and still we can flipping vs a PR or we never stack off our nutted hands except with -AllinEV. Flop CB perhaps can be lower (we have plenty of FE and we are flipping when gii so protecting our stack is my thinking). Stacks are shallow and we can do the math and play in position on later streets....

A perceived range for getting OTT it could be something like:

  -Set, TP+SD, T2P, wrap

If we break it OTT:

  -Top: Set, TP+NFD

  -Mid: T2P, wrap

Having/betting anything with Ac (bottom) OTT gives an edge (you have already mentioned that) so without/against it range becomes KK> heavy??  I would defend only as much as needed (half our range..??)

   -Set, T2P....

Our hand is close but....I fold!!! I don't see much EQ vs Ac...

If b/f is not an option (it seems it should not be) and as more tight (<30%) as we expect villain to call PreFlop then betting pot OTT give us more value (villain can't do anything..).

http://www.runitonce.com/plo/200-4b-spot-w-aa-on-monotone-board-st/

Having this hand in our turn raising range seems not fine to me... Villain's strategy in this spot maybe is to exploit this particular mistake in his opponents. We are trying to level our opponent, saying 'I expect his strategy to be xxx, so I will do yyy with zzz'. If you're right, we gain an advantage. If you're wrong, we lose, and we often lose a lot more when wrong than we gain when right from an overall strategy standpoint. Above all, we're just guessing what villain will do...

And tbh, I actually think flop is a check/give up.

Flop is a call...As hand played I dont think I`ve ever folded...

Sorry guys but I can't agree with most of your comments... Of course I can be wrong on the way I approach this hand/game but let's give it a try...

STED.. why are we defending so wide? Any ds hand is profitable (Q-high/8-high not connected almost at all) especially vs a "good aggro reg with 15% 3b range"?? I can't see that...

•  On the flop you said    "I have 56%....".

-Ok..but we have 2P in a dry flop and still you feel that "this is a complex spot".

-And how can't that not be when we are 200bb deep and a TP has so much EQ vs our hand?

I don't agree with raising... I think we help villain to play better (lose less/win more).... In the mean time I don't see we could vbet thin or bluff catch profitable on the river but this would be my plan (calling & trying to evaluate on next streets) - vs a reasonable continuation range (after we raise) I think we are in big trouble (and villain can construct that range easily)

•   "Any rules of thumb that you use here when deciding what to do ? "...

-not a rule... but win more vs villain's weak continuation hands is my decision maker (hands like AK8, KQ8 with bd2fd> etc should be my bottom when raising I think)

SPASSEWR...

"Id prefer raising if we could just ship flop"

   -ship flop vs what??? Don't get it...

" or raise smallish like u did and pot gii on good turns"

  -our EQ vs villain could not be bad but.....pot gii would be hard for me (only with 2 or an 8...can't see how other turn cards give us more value OTT when GII)

"This deep it gets tricky if we raise if our opp is not str8 forward. If villain is capable of rr bluffing flop or floating this w 1 pair and then c-jamming turned draws i prefer calling."-

I like this very very much especially when OP described villain as "good aggro reg"

THEMI...

"If you raised planning on raise folding to a committing 3bet, then I like it. The flop is so dry that villain isn't going to just bomb some crap kxxx hand over the top, and even those hands have decent equity."-

-I like this

But raising is good since we have serious reverse implied odds on turns and rivers, and villains perception of you will create more fold equity than you might have against a random villains. If you had a different image to villain, or a read that he will frequently rebluff flops I think we have to be careful about raise folding.

-key for me would be to understand this,please... My problem is that I can't and that's why I see raising as not a good decision... I expect random villain ALWAYS continue with 2P(with a k) or better, and let's say TP with bdNfd.... (This is more than half of a K+ cbing range and has good EQ vs 2TP. or better...)

I agree with previous poster and I vote for a Video Series with less hands but more hh deep analysis in...

I like it a lot (it works better for me) when I see a lot of deep range analysis....  IN A VIDEO perhaps while reviewing someone playing (range vs range analysis at 3-5 hands from PreFlop to the river in more depth).  So perhaps something like:

Break ranges (zoom)

RFI,  3b or CC (with Range vs Range reasoning of doing that - what parts of our range should belong where etc)

CB, call or x/r (Range vs Range reasoning for bet size, stack size of doing whatever on every street etc)

Value bet thin

Bluff catching

Reads and quick Adjustments (zoom)

PreFlop adjustments

PostFlop adjustments

Not to forget I find also a lot of help (things to examine, to look and to work on etc) on hh's replies here on the forum (from YOU and other posters).  Thanks also for this!!! 

I wouldn't expect villain CB pot again on the turn without T2P+, KKcc+, NFD+TP/OE etc. So depending his betting size I think we could x/R any 9,T,Q or maybe DB (bluff) with a 6d,  kd vs his dry TT-QQ.  We could x/c any flush, any 8 etc..  I think there are a lot of hands to play on next streets.. So I call OTF. If I had the NFD then I could go for a x/r (not sure if it's best though).

Yes, you did answer. Thanks for your help!! I just would expect "Hero never fold" after betting flop so... That's why I though we don't loose value when we (BN) don't have a gii range. I assumed that otherwise our calling range is weak so without nut potential (you gii with all your 2NFD or better OTF) do we have a reason to call Hero's FCB?? 

I will try to play also with some EV calculations (I'm a newbie and I don't know correctly how to do it yet) to see what happens... Please make some videos showing how we can see these numbers...

Thanks!!

Hi,

I'm trying to practice as much as I can on my range (what is it and how to break it best) so your different approach on this hand (You said ''nobody has a set here given the board texture OTF. I would also make Q4 and T4 pretty unlikely. Most of his range is pair + meh draw or naked draw") gives me the opportunity to ask you 1-2 things trying to see what I'm missing/how to practice more. So if you have time please add your comments,please...

Hero did a 3/4 bet OOP 3way with a short stack (1 size pot bet) next to him. So I  assume he is almost never folding...By giving Hero a tight range ($3b4o) preFlop and a tight betting range of Top2P>, TopPair>+ strongFD/SD, Wraps OTF then BN can just calls with all his continuation range (no GII range)

T2P or better

2P + 2NFD or better (a lot of 4's here, KQ4ss, QJ94ss etc)

Pair + 2NFD or better (same as above, a lot 4's)

Wraps (KJ9 etc)

This is approximately a 35% range from a $FI30!AA where OTT

4 or better is ~40% of his range

QT is 30%

FD, OE is rest

 Obviously I'm wrong with what range I (BN) should have for getting turn as hand played so can you advise what I'm missing when I continue with so many 4's or better in my range? 

Thanks!

FLOP

When I
started looking the hand, flop was a x/c for me (and it was bottom to my xc range). Then I saw that If villain folds too much then b/c flop can give also good value....But we will have a weak x/c range OTT (I guess you have one, no?)

TURN

With aquick look 4h looks best so gii would be my decision while playing .... But after reviewing hand I saw it was very very bad and  4+ is probably half of his range...So we need him to call w/rest of his range a lot and because our range is AA heavy it's difficult villain to call with KQ etc on a paired board....So it seems MUST for us villain to call with all his FD, OE otherwise our bet is -EV

•  x/f is an option

R: means Rank (AKQJT98765432), so !RRR means not three of the same rank (999x). Go to oracle >documentation everything is there

Hi,

I play this tight... so from my/Villain's perspective, vs an AA heavy 3betting range I think I should never call OnthisFlop... Not sure though..

Hero's  EQ vs a reasonable stack off range:

 9T+, 99T+, 9+:Kdd+......can be  45%max??

So from Hero's perspective

bet/gii OTF is ok.....? (Hero's EQ vs nuts looks fine I think...)

bet $3 OTF, bet $6/gii OTT unless a d hits is my play I think here (most turn cards can give us >30%??)

Edit

x/f or b/f I think is not an option so interested to see that a x/c line give us better value on later streets..

Hey,

Thanks for posting. I avoided replying earlier as I wanted to hear more comments for what you advised (or how I played the hand) but it`s ok…

So …

-         
Preflop/Flop= You
want to 3bet -  8dAd8hQh… You said `` 3bet please preflop unless he's like an 18/3 or something``

 It seems fine so I can’t say I disagree… But please note I play much tighter pre yet  -especially 3way OOP vs HJ… (AAds ,KKds,99TTss>,JJT9ds>,AQJTss etc is my 3betting range here)-

If you have time please be so kind to analyze your play here in a 3bet pot 3way…your b/c range OTF -stack off- probably.. .Does our hand fits there with good EV overall most of the time (3bpre + b/c flop)?  You don’t have toshow EV numbers etc.  just to say if you have played with such simulations which shows that…and then I will do the
simulations myself  to see what I`m missing here…Thanks for your help!!

-         
Turn = You said that `` just don't see any value in the turn x/r `` and that `` we're going to be making lots of mistakes`` when we x/r.

I can`t see that with numbers.. FWIW I did a quick simulation a few minutes after posting that’s why I added:

-Villain could fold perhaps good EQ (~30%) OTT after we x/r

-We can have 35% EQ (enough I think for shoving a lot of river cards) vs a reasonable calling range AKQ+, KJhh+,44+:(TJ+,hh,T9+)

This quick simulation shows a +EV x/r decision –same with x/c- (if there was no other betting)…..and I m saying that because Td OTR was one of the few hands where our EQ drops much.. and we can still have a +EV shove as we are bottom of our range,no? forgive my calculations/lots of questions but Im new at PLO...

-         
River= You said that `` just don't see the point in shoving``     and
that    ``if you're trying to get him off AA or JJ I think you're focusing too much on a few combos of his range and not seeing the larger picture``

Same quick simulation did show that we have no EQ vs his range (I gave this number also in my post).Also that JJ,AA are 80% of his range there… but you see only a few combos of those…

-Can you help a little more, please? Is my simulation so wrong?  Please correct whatever combo you need there…

Last thing I wanted to say is that I said that we need villain to fold JJ or 44 only (we don’t care about better hands) 1/3 of the time so…. we can see the point in shoving, can’t we??

Thanks.

Hi

Thanks for your reply.

Have you consider/calculate how much our value drops vs his continuation range on the turn AFTER we will bet? Of course I'm not sure I'm right (my reason for posting) but i see you have in mind that villain will x/c a lot and I think almost 1/3 of the time perhaps he should x/r....So I can't see good value when betting because our EQ vs his value/raising hands gives me about 30% max and from his x/calling hands we can get 60%?? Not sure though as I'm talking for my hand and I don't know how that is a problem when we have different combos

There is also a river decision where we are in position but .....does this benefit us or villain when there will be only a 3/4 pot size bet left?

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

  -I see you advise Hero a jam OTT... my thought was opposite than yours (no FE)...Now after reviewing the hand+your advise I see your point so I need to ask.... 

isn't ok for villain to b/call with OverCards+fd (KQdd+, KQcc+ is good part of his range), he needs to call 32 for 75 

If villain doesn't block TP isn't ok to b/call with QQ+ also? 

This is the range of hands we expect him to fold right? I'm interesting more about your  decision makers. Small things that will help to work FASTER on playability of my range. This hand was just an example trying to understand/discuss more about this..