UTG open, BTN shoves for 25bb, SB has AKo
Posted by MatoStar
Posted by
MatoStar
posted in
Low Stakes
UTG open, BTN shoves for 25bb, SB has AKo
UTG (unknown, havent seen anything stupid, so lets assume he is a reg) opened for 3bb, fish on the button shoves for 25bb, we are on the SB with AKo.
Lets do some calculations. Okay UTG range is usually tighter than it should be, soo lets say 14% - 186 combos. 66+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs+,ATo+, KQo
Now, what are some possible UTG calling ranges if we decide to shove:
a) I would expect that reg calls only KK+ (might be a bit nitty though).
Therefore we have 1- (6/147)=0.9592% fold equity. (ignoring the BB for a simplification). If we go AI vs the fish, I expect a range like this: 88+,A4s+,KJs+,QJs,ATo+,KQo (might be too wide though). Vs this range we do have 60% equity.
So in 95.92%, we will be in a pot 54bb with 60% equity, so we are suppose to win 54(0.6)= 32.4 which is 7.4 profit. So we are winning 7.4 in 95.92% cases --- 7.4*0.9592= 7.09808
In 4.08% we got called by UTG KK+ and we have 18.48% equity vs that range. So on average in a pot of 150, we are investing 75 and our avg return is (0.1848*150) = 27.72. It means that we are losing 75-27.72=47.28. In the side pot of 76bb, we have 14.11%equity, so our avg return is 10.72 therefore we will lose on avg 25-10.72=14.28.
Losing 14.28+47.28=61.56 in 4.08% cases --- 61.56*0.0408= 2.511648
So to summarize we are making 7.09808-2.511648= 4.586432 profit/hand (without rake and the BB player), but I still believe its gonna be slightly profitable.
b) Now lets calculate the ev if the UTG calling range is QQ+,AK.
Then our FE is 1-21/147= 0.857*7,4 = 6.3418 profit (if UTG folds)
In case we got called, we are HU with 38.82% equity in a pot of 150 which makes -16.77 and the side pot is 76bb, our equity is 25.5%, so our avg return is 19.38, so we are losing 25-19.38= 5.62
Okaay so loses: 5.62+16.77= 22.390.143= 3.20177 of loses compared to winnings: 0.8577,4 = 6.3418
*Total 6.3418 - 3.20177 = 3.14003*
Thats a bit less compared with the scneario when the utg is calling only KK+. From that we can conclude: the more nitty the UTG, the more incentivized are we to go for AI shove. I mean, with the rake consideration and the BB player left to act, we might be better off folding vs a more loose utg villain.
1a scenario if utg calls KK+ incl.rake
if we play only a small pot of 25+25+3+1+=54. The rake is 5% (but since we have almost 40% rakeback, lets assume the rake is actually at 3%). Then the pot of 54 becomes 52.38
now the pot is only 52.38 and instead of 7.4 profit, we will have only 52.38/*0.6-25 = 6.428 * 0.9592(the fold equity in 1.case) = 6.17(before the rake it was 7.1)
given the 3% rake the pot is actually 145.5, we have 18.48% so 145.50.1848-75= -48.1116
his side pot would be 73.72 and our equity is 14.11%, so 73.720.1411-25 = -14.598
All of this happens in 4.08% cases so lets add it together: (-48.1116-14.598)*0.0408= -2.56
---- 6.17-2.56= 3.61 including the rake which is almost 1$/hand less.
2a scenario when he calls QQ+,AK incl. rake
I will copy the same from the previous case: instead of 7.4 profit its 6.428 (if UTG folds) * fold equity- 0.857 = 5.508796.
The main pot will be 145.5 (instead of 150), with our equity 38.82%, we are suppose to lose 18.5169.
The side pot will be 73.72 with equity of 25.5% which makes 73.720.255-25= -6.2014
Adding those losses together and multiplying them by their probability: -6.2014-18.5169=-24.71830.143 = 3.5347169
5.508796-3.5347169 = 1.974 profit/hand - thats more than 1$ less if we are taking rake into consideration. If we would neglect the rakeback and use only 5%rake without rb, we will see this. 1% of rake = 0.389; 5% = 1.945. Thats not even 1.2$ profit, thats pretty close, because we are ignoring the BB so far.
Calculations incl. the BB player: coming soon:)
Loading 9 Comments...
Wow, very good post. Rake really makes this spot awful. Will certainly change my brainless approach to that spot when I in game probably normally just go "big cards I press big money button".
Thanks mate:)
Spent on that probably like an hour since I really enjoy the math esp. when you come to some exact results.. I will try to add the rake consideration, because I know the rake is 5% in this environment (but then I shouldnt forgot about the rakeback which might be even 40% right now..).
Any advice how to involve the BB player into the calculations? Maybe creating another scenario (expecting also only KK+) give them a probability - 0.9% and from there UTG might fold or call (KK+ prob). Okay, gotta update the post.. :D
I also think that the range which I assign to the fishy player is a bit wider, dont you think so guys?
Depends a lot on the type of fishy player he is... The solution that comes to mind for the fish range problem would to make an average off the different types of ranges the different type of weaker players can have there but don't see any way we can find enough data. Think your solution for evolving the BB is good but maybe redundant if after rake calculations we get that it's allways -EV so since it can be more complicate maybe save it for last?
Just one thing, you gotta put card removal in the math, I believe it will change the numbers considerably. If there's no software that does that and you don't have the time I can help you with that
In which scenario I forgot about card removal? I was making those equity calcs in equilab..
I just realized that AKo vs KK+ has only 18.2% equity.. not 20%, maybe that was the thing
KK and AA are not 0.9% of BB's range when you hold AK, he's got 6 combos instead of 12. It's also not 0.45% because it removes from other combos so we got to take one A and one K from all combos that contain them. Seems hard, there has to be software that does it. It will 100% change the fold equity math substantially since I don't think it is on the original post math either, KK+ of UTG after removal is less than 6.5% of the opening range so we'll have more fold equity.
Great post. I am curious as to what range from our fish makes calling a worse than -0.5 EV, at which point it would just be best to fold and lose the small blind. Any approximations would be much appreciated.
I was noticing as well you were not taking account of removal effects, in scenario 1a KK+ are only 6 combinations, and in scenario 1b QQ+, AK are 28 combinations. Think that changes your math quite a bit. Combined with the fact that I would assign the recreational player a wider range, I'm shoving here. But interested to see if your calculations lead to another result.
Thanks so much guys!:)
All suggestions should be fixed for now! Please check out the updated version and let me know if there are still some errors which need to be fixed:)
Btw the card removal with holding AK seems pretty strong - it increased our profit for a decent amount in all cases!
Once I finish this case with the BB, I will focus on calculating whats the bottom of our range with more than -0.5ev in a vacuum and then against certain player profiles (nit, aggro, fish)
Look forward to seeing this!
Be the first to add a comment