Neutralizing ultra loose players
Posted by lamaglass
Posted by
lamaglass
posted in
Low Stakes
Neutralizing ultra loose players
So I play 1-2 NLHE at a locally. I have a casino I can go to about 40 minutes away, where the action is generally a lot tighter with a generally higher caliber of player. I play most often at local charity card rooms where there are a lot of people who play there are like ridiculously loose. For a long time I had a pretty standard pre-flop raise of 5x. The problem that I encountered here with that is that a.) it isn't uncommon for there to be a family pot of limpers. I RARELY limp at all. When I was raising to 10 or 12 preflop I'd still get 4 or 5 people calling me pretty regularly which makes it that much harder to defend my range. Especially with a bluff C-bet. So I started just experimenting with a standard raise size of 7.5-10x. Which generally does the trick. But I still get some downright stupid calls. This post is coming out of a hand I played last night.
I am in the small blind and get pocket. Player UTG limps, the table folds around to me and I raise to 15, which was my standard 7.5x all night last night. BB folds and UTG calls. Flop comes Ac 4C Kd. Now I'm not too worried about the ace. I've seen UTG dude raise preflop with A rag a few times tonight from just about any position. So I don't think he has an A, but the K scares me a little more. I figure maybe I can rep the A, maybe even make him believe I have AK. on three different occasions over the night I've done my preflop 7.5x (one was a three bet) and after taking the pot down preflop I've shown AA once and AK twice so I'm hoping he will buy AK or at at least a big A. So the flop comes and I throw out a 3/4 pot sized bet for 24. He has to think about it. It isn't acting. and based upon how things play out I'm pretty sure dude has never heard of pot odds. HE calls, Given his demeanor, and just my general read I put him on a draw, I'm thinking a flush draw. Next card comes and its a 4h. So now the board is paired. I think about it for a while. I feel confident about my read, and my ability to represent the A. Even if I'm not pulling that off, if my read is right my 6,6 is good anyway. I don't want him to catch up, I'd rather win the pot right here so I jam with my remaining 78, which is just over he size od the pot. Dude insta calls. When he did it I thought that he must have a 4 and my read was way off, or maybe worse yet a k4, but dude rolls a Q 10 off. Proudly. BB dude says A,K as I'm rolling my hand. At least someone believed my semi bluff. So If dude believed I had either an A or K he is calling for exactly a J. Which puts him at around a 9-1 dog I think. In reality his odds were higher bc he could have beat me by pairing either of his hole cards too, but he was there for that jack. The river comes and. You already know. He makes his gutshot straight.
Obviously getting sucked out on is part of poker, but there was no way that dude should have been making that call. Anybody else got advice for best dealing with players who will pretty much throw money at anything (the obvious answer is take their money, but it creates too many risky situations where you are up against crazy ranges that will connect a lot more), I'd love to hear what ya'all have to say?
Loading 7 Comments...
If you are thinking they are so fishy then why do you try to bluff them? Maybe they don't fold because they think you are a player that is willing to stack off with 66 on a AKx flop.
If the pots are 5-6 way, why is it harder to defend your range? You have to defend at a much lower frequency than if it was heads up. Stop trying to buy every pot.
From the sound of it you try to put players on one specific hand but every opponent plays a range of hands so you need to think about their range distribution and it's interaction with your range distribution. It also sounds like you are trying to force action. Maybe you are getting bored at the tables?
Raising pre-flop is okay but not great. OTF there is no reason to be firing 6's in this spot as a bluff. Same with the turn. It is not that your bluff is insanely bad but your thought process seems to be that you think they suck and you should be able to push them around in any way you want. That is not the case as you saw. If they are not going to fold then you need to be using a linear value range and not trying to bluff them (yes, this is a bluff).
If you are making what is known as 'value-bluffs' then it is likely that you don't know the actual value of your hand versus your opponents range. My suggestion would be to spend more time watching videos on RIO. Get yourself a subscription and watch video after video after video. Then get some software to study hand ranges and study, study, study.
I appreciate the feedback. I really don't try to buy pots that often. I generally play pretty tight. I'm not one to try to force action. And boredom at the table isn't an issue either. I love the environment as well as most of the people I play with. I love the game. I thought I was ahead in this situation (I was when I got my money in), I still wanted to represent a stronger hand. You are right. It was a bluff. I do see a lot of the people I play against playing pretty loose and sloppy but the fact is that, unless I'm walking in there cleaning up on a regular basis, I've obviously got some pretty big holes in my game as well. I don't have any delusions that I have shit figured out. Again, thanks for the advice. I will continue to study, watch videos and ask for feedback. Be well.
Thats good. You really have to have a lot of patience when playing live poker. The way your post read was that you try to run over opponents but that may just have been interpretation through text.
I would like to ask how you constructed your range here? Is it just "in-the-moment I think I can bluff him"? Because if you are bluffing 66 then I assume that you are bluffing all other small pairs as well? Then you add in straight draws etc and your range severely starts lacking value in the value:bluff ratio. This can be amazingly good for getting paid when you have a hand but will really burn money.
The way I like to play this flop is with a very small block-bet to try to realize equity with my range. Something like 25% pot. Then turn would be a check/fold with this specific hand.
An over-bet could work on this flop as well. And actually, if it is a good-to-great opponent you will want to learn how to incorporate the flop over-bet into your range on boards such as this. The problem with over-bets is, in-general, they are pretty straight forward to play against. Against a strong opponent it will be the highest EV option though.
With your specific hand the only size that would be acceptable OTF is very small [25-33%] unless the opponent is overly passive/foldy.
Another thing I would like to stress is something you probably won't see many other commentators mention and that is the importance of keeping weak players at the table happy to play pots and be in the game. Not saying you do or do not do this as I do not know you but you should be actively keeping players happy at the table, especially if they are weak.
I recently made the switch from online, which I had played for several years, to playing a lot more live poker. The reason I did this is due to automation becoming much more prevalent in the computing world. Whether it be software-assisted methods, bots, or players who study and/or use hand-range charts for pre-flop decisions it is just becoming less profitable than it used to be. But live poker is still very alive and well. Actually, I am currently typing this on my laptop at a poker table in the casino while I wait for a live game to begin.
Anyways, I digress. You should be friendly as possible and remove headphones whenever the game is boring for the other players - start chatting. Buy whales drinks. Make jokes. Do things that keep these players happy to stick around and give you the money. You can double-triple your winrate by doing this.
Live poker is def not all about the cards and the strategy (though it is a good portion). There is so much value to be had in other places that people don't realize. It is all about making it a fun environment for these players as they come to the casino to have a good time... so give them a good time!
So, I don't often bluff. Not in cash games anyway. A little more so in tournaments. I"ll explain my thinking a little more. knowing what I know about the guy I was playing the pot with, he could have had a small/middle pair, It's possible that he had an A, but I had seen him raise with Ax on more than one occasion and he had limped. So other than that I'm thinking any two over cards or any two suited cards. He could be limping with just about anything, really and calling a raise didn't necessarily narrow his range for me, OTF I took the line I did because, obviously, that's not a dry board or one that you particularly want to see if you have a small pair. I wanted information, which I could have got from a smaller bet as well, but if he wasn't ahead I didn't want to give him good enough odds to call. Despite wanting to rep aces, after my flop bet I thought the chances were in my favor that I was still ahead.
A little aside first before I tell you why. When I re-read my initial comment I can see how I came off sounding pretty shitty towards the UTG guy. I wasn't trying to just make him sound like a weak player, but when I say that he has likely never heard of pot odds, I wasn't just saying that. You have to understand the room I play at. It isn't uncommon for someone who connects in a big way (a set, a straight, even the low end when there's 4 cards to the straight on the board and they have the bottom card, or the nuts) and are sitting on 300 in chips and the pot is 35 to just shove. No value bets, or even 3 seconds of consideration, like they are waiting for the action to come to them so they can jam as fast as they can. I swear I see it multiple times on any given night. This guy is one of those players. This is not me being arrogant, or talking bad about people. I like alot of those people as people. This is just the game I play in.
So, back to this hand. The flop comes and I decide to make a 3/4 size pot bet. This is my thinking. If he does have a small pair (I don't think he has an over pair b/c he limped) there are 4 pairs smaller than mine and 3 larger (if we aren't counting broadway range) One of them that is smaller than mine is obviously represented on that board. If he has a pair of 4s he will likely come over me and I'll dump my hand. If I've eliminated 4s, which I pretty much do after betting the flop, bc he just calls, I'm left thinking he has either clubs (he would have dumped random suited cards of any other suit) two over cards, or one one of the other 6 small pairs. He could have 6s too, but I haven't really considered that. Soooo....If I'm looking at that, rather large range, I'm figuring I'm still ahead, even if he doesn't buy my bluff. If he has pairs it's 50/50 that I'm in the lead (three small pairs bigger and three smaller), As far as the overcards, I'm slightly favored there. If you subtract the king on the board there are more combinations of QJ, Q10, J10 than there are of KQ, KJ, K10 and factoring the possibility that he has any two clubs there is a better chance that I am ahead, and that he is on a draw. When I factor his demeanor when calling I hadn't eliminated the pairs, but I guessed he was on a draw. Probably a clubs draw bc with an A on the board there are only gutshot straight draws and there are only 4 cards that will make his hand and I didn't want to lay him anywhere near good enough odds to call and possibly catch up. Despite the odds I Iaid him he did call with, if he did believe I had connected with the board, a 4 outer. If he didn't believe me, and in reality, he had 10 outs to beat me (1 more out than he would have had, had he been on a club draw), he still wasn't getting good enough odds to call.
When I made this comment in the first place I was still frustrated over a bad beat. But that's what I was looking at from my perspective. I do have a shitload to learn to be playing at the level I'd like to (By level I mean level of play, not money...though I would like to have the bankroll and ability to play higher stakes as well), which is why I spend my time soliciting information, watching videos, practicing on APT. Again, I appreciate the feedback. I think having other players challenging you to think your process through and pointing out flaws in that process is essential to growth. Almost all of the social time I spend with the people I know locally who do play cards is at the card room and we aren't giving this kind of feedback. So thanks!
I don't play live. Just my comments:
Against ultra-loose/passive players (players who routinely call 6x raises preflop certainly count), you play tight and straightforward, and value bet them a lot. If they want to put a lot of money in the pot, fold unless you have the near nuts. You can bluff them, but do it rarely.
Also, it's not a big disaster if you see flops multiway -- your tighter preflop range means that you will make better pairs and stack them more often. Just play straightforwardly in multiway pots, and fold if the action gets too hot. You will get stacked by random two pairs, but you'll stack people more often than they stack you.
It's boring and simple, but it's very profitable.
Also, this comment:
is wrong. Just because fish ranges are wide, doesn't mean they connect more. They connect less, in fact. If someone plays 72o vs your AK and connects on K72, sure. But he'll pay you off on K73, K74, K75, K76, K82, K92 etc.
Fish will let you know when they have a big hand. In these cases, just fold and let them have the pot. I read an metaphor once which might be helpful. Think of yourself as a casino: you have to pay out sometimes to keep the suckers coming back.
Thanks for the feedback. I just responded to Snow and Fire about people shoving 300 into a 35 dollar pot, rather than value betting, when they make their hands. So yes, you are correct in that poor players will often broadcast strength rather than try to get paid. When I said they connect more that wasn't necessarily what I meant, I guess I meant that they are more likely to connect with anything. If I have AK and the board comes J72 rainbow against a tighter player I might be worried about sets or maybe AJ or 10J or something, but against a fish they might have just hit J2 or something. That's what I was talking about. Not the percentage of time they connect but the difficulty in knowing when connect.
If you think a bit about it, "percentage of time they connect" and "difficulty in knowing when they connect" are not very different.
Suppose they connect 25% of the time, and of that percentage, 10% is when they make some random two pair like J2. You connect 40% of the time, because you have a tighter range.
Suppose you simply wait to connect and stack off blindly. It's still +EV. You win 30% of the time and you lose 10% of the time.
In reality, the situation is even better than this hypothetical scenario because the fish will let you know when they have a big hand, and you can get away sometimes.
The main thing to keep in mind is that it's ok to lose to fish occasionally.
Be the first to add a comment