c/c 3 streets BvB

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c/c 3 streets BvB

HJ: omnomonoomn: $291.70
CO: victorvaughn: $245.05
BN: ninodebby: $198.50
SB: trust.me: $200
BB: saintvicious: $236.35
Villain 21/17/fold bvb 57/bet v missed flop cb 70/turn cb 50/wwsf 46/river agg 28 - 2,2k hands

Is this a spot where we want to fall back on game theory? Im unsure of villains frequency here so we should defend around 60% of our range to make us unexploitable?

Just trying to get my head around some gto stuff and am looking to see if im thinking about it correctly.

Preflop ($3.00) (5 Players)
trust.me was dealt T 7
omnomonoomn folds, victorvaughn folds, ninodebby folds, trust.me raises to $5, saintvicious calls $4
Flop ($12.00) 8 9 T (2 Players)
trust.me checks, saintvicious bets $8, trust.me calls $8
i like having this hand in my c/c range because this is a flop i will be c/folding quite often so its nice to protect my folding range.
Turn ($28.00) 3 (2 Players)
trust.me checks, saintvicious bets $18, trust.me calls $18
ez call
River ($64.00) 2 (2 Players)
trust.me checks, saintvicious bets $44
call with a gto range?

Also what can we assume about villains range if he shows down KQo? He has alot of Tx hands in his range that can barrel here so maybe hes unbalaced in this spot?

12 Comments

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thedoors 12 years, 1 month ago
opinion from former nl200 player and actual nl100 :=(
you range is capped flop so if hes good he has a easy 3 barrel bluff (so find it good with QKo)
if you dont have read you have to call with GTO frequency, and that wil certainly put you to call this hand but
i would X/R somewhere flop or turn, since we have much equity and dont fear a 3bet + it balances our range
i dont have a X/C range oop on this baby drawy board, only a X/R range (so with my nut too)
brodyz 12 years, 1 month ago
i really cant see our hand fitting into a c/raise range. We are turning top pair into a bluff basically. We have too much bluffcatch value imo.

And yeh KQ seems like a fine hand to 3barrel with but will that make him unbalanced towards bluffs in this spot?
WM2K 12 years, 1 month ago
Don t be so hard on yourself doors. Poker is tough. You ll get there with the right attitude and work.
John Morrey 12 years, 1 month ago
I really don't like the C/C line you take here. It opens us up to be either bluffed or thinly VB by our opponent so I much much prefer betting. I haven't thought much about it but at face value I really love a bet, CR line here.
WM2K 12 years, 1 month ago
c/c here is totally fine. Its a spot where you have to give up sooooo much and the value get by betting with this holding is pretty limited as is. Whether or not we have to call for balance reasons OTR really depends on your range for getting here like this. I ll c/c stronger hands OTF sometimes as well like AA so I have some clear c/c 3 street hands and so that TPWK isnt the top of my range.

Fwiw at least vs the donks I play against they have it more often then not when they 3 barrel. They are unbalanced definitely as it perhaps feels a bit ambitious to bluff here. I d say if this is really the very top of your range then perhaps you need to reconsider your ranges. You may still have to call some split amount of the time though to remain "unexploitable" depending how much that matters here.
brodyz 12 years, 1 month ago
good posts wm2k, do you like taking c/c line here with JJ & QQ aswell? they seem pretty good if not better hands than AA to take this line with. Also would we be folding AA to 3barrels an any card bringing in a straight?
John Morrey 12 years, 1 month ago
Are you ever C/C a bigger than TPNK hand here? Because if not any perceptive player and even aggro fish are just going to beat the crap out of our range when we take this line. I think betting at least the flop is MUCH more +EV than a C/C line.
BigFiszh 12 years, 1 month ago
As WM2K correctly mentioned, if we elect to x/c with TPNK in this spot we HAVE to balance that with stronger hands as well. We could take hands like 98, AA and stuff (even TT because it blocks most pair+str8-draws) - and easily x/c three streets and the "aggro fish" is beating the crap out of himself. :) It´s all a question of balance.

So, the question comes down if we WANT to have a checking-calling-range at all or if we only want to bet or x/r, x/f - and I´d say, yes, I definitely want to have a x/c-range, because "perceptive players and even aggro fish" will just use their position and raise the crap out of my cbets. ;)
John Morrey 12 years, 1 month ago
I personally would rather polarize our cbet range so they can't take advantage of me by raising AT ALL (TP + OESD definitely fits into the top part of this), than I would by C/C down here with AA which just seems awful. Especially in a BvB where play is going to be more LAG by default.

Just curious, but why do you particularly have to have a c/c range?
WM2K 12 years, 1 month ago
A c/not give up range is pretty important on these sorts of boards because so much of our range just cannot compete for the pot so we either c bet too much and get owned by raises ( even AA is not excited to see a raise) or we c/give up a ton. Probably both :D.

c/c AA here is pretty sexy imo and its a play that I make in similar spots at a fairly high frequency. Basically AA is one of the most invulnerable single pair hands we have here. No overcards can fall! Secondly going for 3 streets of value even bvb is going to be mega thin on most runouts. Thirdly if we do bet and face a raise villain can still raise with a high frequency of bluffs but he can have so many value hands that AA is still in a tough spot.

In the end though we are not going to be able to defend our sb range here enough. Thats just a fact you need to learn to deal with. The board favors villains range too much and lots of villains don t defend their bb enough so my range at least is quite air heavy even on the boards that favor me. I just raise pre, accept that I ve already won vs players who fold 55%+ in the bb and then try to remember to not give back all my preflop profits by spewing postlfop with too many bad c bets etc.
mike 12 years, 1 month ago
not sure how GTO this is but on dynamic boards were equities change a lot on turns and rivers i don't really have a CH/C range as i feel like the player in position will gain a bigger than normal edge. so on these boards i CB or XR/XF

i am not really sure from a GTO perspective how how to split my range into XC, XR, CB, XF and all the subsequent turn/river lines this brings

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