Building defense preflop range IP
Posted by KaWab00ng4
Posted by
KaWab00ng4
posted in
Low Stakes
Building defense preflop range IP
Hi all,
I'm trying to move up in the world of ranges and start to construct a defense range vs OR when I'm IP. This strategy wants to be something like a "general strategy" based on my field tendencies. Firts of all, do you agree with these general rules?
- Defense IP something like half of OR range;
- Defense a little more or a little less of this half, based on your relative position;
- Calling IP is a bit better than 3betting;
- 2:1 is a good call:3bet ratio.
Well, let's start with my population analysis. Today I try to study how I should play vs. UTG when I am in position. These are reg's UTG preflop stats:
RFI 15.6% (55+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, ATo+, KJo+)
Fvs3b 50%
Fold flop vs CB in 3b 40%
4b range 2.5%
In this scenario I've changed 2:1 call:3bet ratio in 1:1, because of their low Fvs3b and not excellent (for our bluff cbet range) fold vs cbet in 3b pot, although a standard half pot cbet makes a little profit against this tendecies too. I also choose a depolarized 3betting range for the same reasons. Something wrong at this point?
Let's try with MPvsUTG. I've to defend a bit less of 15.6/2 = 7.8. I choose my 5bet range; probably pretty easy against a 2.5% 4bettor who (almost) never folds; now it's turn of 3b and CC range. I'll 3bet all hands with >50%eq vs. UTG Call to 3b range:
4b UTG range (QQ+, AK)
Call to 3b UTG range (88+,AQs+,KQs,JTs,T9s,98s,AQo+,KQo)
My 5bet range (KK+)
My 3bet range (TT+,AK)
And call with some good playbility/high IO hands:
(99-88, AQ, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s)
Total defense range = 6.79%
COvsUTG
Now I'll try to defend exactly 7.8%. I have to add something like 10 combos (5 in 3b and 5 in CC ranges). Because of my depolarized range I have to add the top of my CC range in the bottom of my 3betting range; in other words, 6 of 12 AQo combos. AJs and 77 seems the best candidates to add 10 combos in CC range.
My 5bet range (KK+)
My 3bet range (TT+,AK, AQo 6 combos)
My CC range (77-99, AQo 6 combos, AQs, AJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s)
Total defense range = 7.54%
I'm I on the right way? In next days I commit myself to analyze BTNvsUTG and any other positionVSposition, but first I'd like to know if I'm making any mistake. Thank you all.
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Mistake n°1 - Call to 3b UTG range
I've posted this: 88+,AQs+,KQs,JTs,T9s,98s,AQo+,KQo. But this range includes his 4betting range and we not play postflop against this range. I want >50%eq against this range (JJ-77,AQs-AJs,KJs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,AQo-AJo,KQo).
Edited version:
4b UTG range (QQ+, AK)
Call to 3b UTG range (JJ-77,AQs-AJs,KJs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,AQo-AJo,KQo)
My 5bet range (KK+)
My 3bet range (99+,AJs+,AQo+)
But now, I have 5.43% and I can't defense another 5.43% with a call because my range would become too wide. Simply use (half-5.43) CC range?
hey, i doubt anyone knows anything about what you just written here, i think youre taking micros too serious :D
lol you are right! :D
But I'm not a micro grinder, I usually play NL100 but I choose to move down in stakes to implement some new game skills. So I need to study stuff like this in order to come back at my stakes. Do I move this topic in other sections in your opinion? And how can I do this?
You have to defend based on villains betsize. if he bets 2/3 of the pot, you have to defend 60% of your range. That means, you fold out 40% of your range. The 60% you devide into a calling and a raising range. And the raisingrange should have a Bluff/Value ratio of 2:1.
I would recomand you to read mathew jandas "application of NL Holdem" There you can read how to construckt ranges!
Sorry Zoty79, but probably you are talking about other dynamics? Thank you for thank you for giving me recommended "Application og NL Holdem".
Agreed, Janda is doing a good job explaining a GTO approach to range construction. Although I don't think his ranges are applicable to today's microstakes games. I've analyzed jandas and pokersnowies ranges and think it's a very interesting topic.
I'm in school right now but I'll write something later today.
What stake are you playing? I think your UTG RFI (15.6%) is a bit lose. Personnaly I'm not opening as wide (J9s, 97s, ATo...) except with good table conditions. So because of that I think all your range are a bit too lose. I'm also not sure that 3bet/folding 99/QQ, AJs+, AQo+ is a good thing, I prefer put those hands in my calling range and 3bet/fold with hands like A5s, AJo, KQo...
I don't really have a calling range MP vs UTG, I'm probably calling hands like AQs/AJs, KQs, good pairs and 3betting with the better hands with I can't call. I'm also sometimes calling with KK/AA.
15.6% is not my UTG RFI range, but it is the reg population UTG RFI range at this stake.
Also with these UTG tendecies?
Your UTG tendencies looks lose to me. What's your sample? For me, to 3bet/fold a hand like JJ or AQs, the guy has to be raising pretty wide, calling lots of 3bet and 4bet really tight, with these conditions, yes you can probably 3bet/fold because he will call with hands that you dominate, but it's really player dependant. I don't think you can use this strategy against any regs, might be good against some, but if the guys is opening only 12% and folding 70% to 3bet, I think it's pretty bad to 3bet/fold AQs or JJ, I prefer calling, and play in position against a range we dominate and use A5s or KQo as a 3bet.
Plus as I said, you have to take in count the probability of getting squeezed, because if a reg see you calling with hands like 87s in MP vs UTG he will start squeezing
I don't talk/post about any of my UTG tendecies. In the first post I'm in MP and then in CO positions.
Edit: if you refer to reg's UTG RFI in "MY" database, I have something like 10k hands from UTG.
As I said in my first post:
RFI 15.6% (55+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, ATo+, KJo+)
Fvs3b 50%
Fold flop vs CB in 3b 40%
4b range 2.5%
Obviously. This is a theoretical exercise, not an attempt to build a GS vs all regs.
I'm not talking about your utg tendancies but those you give to regs, it's why I'm asking your sample (on how many hands are based the UTG range you give to reg). But anyway, as I said I don't think you can use your strategy against any reg, it depends a lot on their RFI, fold to 3bet and 4bet %
Ok, I understood what you want to say; but lets imagine for a second that these are the tendecies of one specific reg. How you construct you IP defense range?
I'm honestly not really a big fan of calling with SCs anywhere but OTB. But MPvUTG especially I think calling 87s, 98s and possibly T9s as well isn't really profitable. But you might play them better than me post-flop.
Maybe check your database if you're making a profit flatting these hands?
I can fold SCs if I find other hands for my CC range that are not just included in my depolarized 3betting range. What's your alternative?
I'm just really not sure you wanna go depolarized here. Personally I'd prefer to flat JJ/TT and even QQ and AK. I'd rather bluff 3bet T9s. I just really prefer to have the betting lead with SCs, that's where I believe the value of than hand lies, in semi-bluffing.
The thing about flatting with SCs is it's gonna get tough to play if you get overcalled or squeezed. I'd much rather show up with a hand like QQ/AK versus a squeeze than to be capped at 99/AQ.
Versus an overcall too, I flat T9s, BTN calls as well, on most flops I'm gonna have something marginal and we're threeway. This is not a great situation. If I flat JJ instead I have an overpair a lot of the time or can even hit a set and now I'm thrilled to be threeway.
Why you choose a polarized 3bet range? In my opinion, I 3bet polarized when (with standard sizes) he folds to 3bet at least 66% or he has high fold vs cbet frequency on the flop.
I have to give this some more thought (and read disharmonist's essay below) but my general point is I think that I would like your strategy if this was BBvSB and villain were opening that range and reacting the same to 3-bets, etc.
But this is MPvUTG so there are other things to consider beyond those variables.
Altough its a great idea to optimize your preflop play, I wouldnt try to be focused too much on finding a perfect ratio of calling and 3betting hands against a postion for following reasons:
1) You dont need to defend when you dont have money invested, you make a certain move because you believe can win more than you lose on later streets if you call or raise hand xx.
2) Some players are positionally unaware and raise any hand they want to play in any position. So 3bet calling ranges also differ.
3) You forget that there a some other players that could be involved and you also have to consider their actions behind you.
Following point 3) there are other strategic reasons that terminate whether you want to call, reraise or simply fold.
Do you want to play a multiway pot and flop big or lose the minimum? Do you want to isolate against a player who plays bad in 3 betpots oop by either calling too light or folding too tight?
Do you get squeezed on a lot? Maybe dont play the hand or 3bet yourself, light cold 4betting is a very rare phenomenon.
You can buy postion by 3betting when you are i mp or cut off and there isnt a lot of coldcalling or cold 4betting going on but be careful in the micros.
So its also a matter of table dynamic and not only most likely hand ranges.
Noone can say if 3betting polarized or depolarized is the better of two approaches.
The light 3bet for instance has not much immediate value, you risk 9-12 bb to win the standard raise and the blinds if it works. You make more money if you oppontent calls often oop and x/folds any flop or he pays off a hand he doesnt expect you to have.
Kawaboong:
"Why you choose a polarized 3bet range? In my opinion, I 3bet polarized when (with standard sizes) he folds to 3bet at least 66% or he has high fold vs cbet frequency on the flop"
Most EV comes from superior postflop play. A 3bet pot is just a pot with a different SPR.
The depolarized/merge approach works best against lose passive players who hit the call button with any pair and you make more out of hands like AQ then when you flat pre due to the pot geometry and low SPR. But it can also get you in trouble if ppl stop calling with worse and trap with dominating hands and start 4betting wider, then you are basically bluffing with the potentially best hand.
Some prefer the polarized strategy because we can win the pot pre with the worst hand (9 high for instance), or surprise when we hit big post.
Look at your flop equity (I just made that term up) , so the variety of flops that are excellent for your hand in terms of flopping not only made hands but strong draws.
For instance if you 3 bet with AQoff, you have the best hand often enough but you wont hit flops too hard. If you flop an ace, its hard to get payed off by worse because your 3bet represents highcards and strong pp. If you miss the flop you will hand up having a gutshot at best and will either c-bet once or check down ace high. Same goes for TT, it doesnt matter that much if you have the best hand pre, because more than half the time a J or better will hit the flop so you wont be able to go for 2-3 streets for value. It also hurts to give up to a 4bet.
Hands like 76s will flop two pair or trips just as often as any other unpaired holecards.
But not many worry about trip 7 on a 772 board but will look out for highcards to come.
These hands can also flop flushdraws 1/8 times and openenders 1/8 times and dont forget gutters- they have the least equity but are the most disguised. Now you dont depend on your c-bet to work super often, you can also make solid 2 barrels and get paid huge if you hit. So you do not immediatly profit by 3betting and c-betting on good boards but also by hitting ppl off guard.
Thank you OttoPilot and Disharmonist for the last replies. I agree with your considerations and I probably play a very similar strategy to yours, but we are far away from my goal. I began to ask myself if this "non-mathematical" approach has gaps and then I start trying to estimate a reacting range vs UTG opener (in this case) when I'm IP. Is this goal or my method wrong/without any sense? If I understood correctly, it doesn't makes too much sense vs UTG; same words for a BTNvsCO situation?
You need a very clear idea of how your opponents plays reacts to you with which hands. If you play against more predictable opponent or better an entire playerpool that all play similar, you make totally sense.
Its only hard to estimate the EV of preflop call or 3bet and handreading before the flop is dealt is vague.
Well, I'll try to figure out how this player pool react and then I'll post a more detailed scenario. For now we have:
We probably need more infos about his postflop ranges and tendecies, right?
What limits do you play here? Could be an indicator of tendencies.
These stats are from NL25, but I need to do the same work for NL100 (the stakes I usually play).
Back to the database: average fold to cbet in 3bet pot OTF, OTT and OTT are 48%, 30% and 12%. I haven't a decent sample size by position, but this seems to be the standard at NL25 and NL50/NL100 too. I have the lower fold equity on Q high flops.
Than c-bet basically always, double barrel only with 8+ outs draws and ship it OTR with the goods only.
Yeah ok, this is easy to understand. But, the question is always the same; what kind of preflop 3betting range I should cbet 100% of the time? In this case, I choose a polarized range, not for the preflop autoprofit (we don't have it with a 50% Fvs3bet), but for the FvsCB% OTF. And how this range is structured? Value/bluff hands? Ratio?
Its hard to construct a perfect ratio of value to bluff on the flop because your hand can have EQ when called, your made hand can get drawn out, the turn and river / actions taken on it cannot be predicted entirely.
So i saw some pie chart somewhere about ratios on flops and it sayed that you should have slightly more bluff than value, about 40-45 value and 55-60 bluffs.
Now in reality i would bet if I had: Top pair or better unless the board is super connected and hits villains range hard. A live gutshot favorably with overcards or bd flushdraws, and openenders + better.
If i completly missed i would bet any flop with 1 or 2 cards of jacks or better, completly unconnected rainbow low card flops like 2 4 9 and hands i block monsters on.
I would not bluff on boards that have 3 to a straight even if its somewhat unconnected. The amount of 1card gutshots and 2 pairs is insanely high and therefore Fold EQ low.
Sorry if I've not explained well my question, but I'm talking about preflop range and not about the flop range.
The top of your value 3bet range should be cbetted close all the time. Doesnt benefit you to always try to win the pot when you reraised with 75ss and the flop nails the callers range.
I tried for some time always to win when holding 0% EQ but it will kill your winrate if you autocbet the weak part of 3bet range.
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