Out Now
×

Betsizing postflop analysis. Is my thinking correct?

Posted by

Posted by posted in Mid Stakes

Betsizing postflop analysis. Is my thinking correct?

Howdy!

The aim of this post is to expose my thinking to the community and perhaps invoke some kind of a critique of it and make adjustments.

Ok, let's get to it.

Most good players use sizing on flop, turn and river accounting for flop texture (the wetter the more), opponent tendencies etc. They mostly play 1/2 to 3/4 on the flop, turn and river and mostly progressively in later streets.

So let's say I open A5s on the button and get called by BB. Flop comes out K,5,2 rainbow, I bet 1/2 of the pot. I am right that that is standard?

Now, that's all well and cool, but it got me thinking, what about GTO?

I mean, the more we bet, the more bluff combinations we can include into our betting range to make villain's fold/call indifferent, am I right?

So let's assume the same thing. We open A5s OTB, get called by BB.
Okay, now my analysis goes like this.

Let's make up our value range OTF:

There is a 10% for us hitting a nut flash draw. That gives us almost always about +50% equity, so that is not pure semibluff, but a bet for value (most of the time).

Chances of hitting a pair (an ace or a 5) are about 27%. Some of the time 5 won't be a pair to value, but it will balance itself with high cards that we could bet safely assuming it's for value

There is about 4% to get a two-pair hand

There is about 1,5% to get trips

Other big hands like four of a kind, flashes on the flop etc. make up about 1%

So that is about 44% (let's say for the sake of simplicity 45%) that we bet safely assuming it's for value, and about 55% we bet as a bluff.

As we know in GTO play, even a ratio of 50/50 bluff and value combos can't be reached, because the whole thing is an asymptote, so 40/60 is unfeasable.

Simple conclusion is that we can't play GTO on the flop if we continue with 100% frequency. What happens when we continue with a lower frequency?

Let's say we checkback some of the time we hit a 5, sometimes when we have an ace for pot control, and sometimes with a high card even though we think we are ahead because we wanna realize our equity OTR. That is about let's say 12% of the time we are on the flop.

So now we bet 32% for value and 68% as a bluff 88% of the time total. Oops! That is even worse for GTO play! We can't possibly have a bet to make it indifferent!

So, how much air and weak draws do we need to remove from the betting range to make the whole thing look quite okay when we bet half the pot? We need 25% of bluffs for 75% of value...

The answer is that we need to remove 42% of our bluffs (ALMOST HALF!!!) and 12% of our value hands to be able to bet half the pot with GTO correct play. This all, of course is assuming villain either folds or calls his whole range, but that is too complex for me now to think about it xD

Now, is my analysis worth something? Or am I making some huge incorrect assumption about it all. Please feel free to respond, I just thought of it, and am in dire need to misapply it as soon as possible xD

6 Comments

Loading 6 Comments...

sweet16 9 years, 6 months ago

I'm going to be honest because that will help you the most in the long run. First of all I'm not sure I would call this a analysis because there are just words with the occasional numbers (Which I have no clue where you get them from)

So first of all if we want to bet super wide (I.e our whole range give or take), the standard play at msnl is probably like 1/5-1/3 pot bet. Second of all, there aren't rly "bluffs" on the flop. Or like you can't say x is a bluff and y is a value bet (Or it's not the way of thinking you should have, especially not when betting these super wide ranges). That kind of thinking works on the river, but it's not the same on the flop. Third and last not sure what you mean when you're referring to GTO. How can you know "GTO" without giving them ranges.

There are a bunch of things I don't rly understand what you're talking about so I wont comment them. But to me it seems if you are interested about GTO there are som really good videos by Ben, Stevejpa and Tyler-

Disharmonist 9 years, 6 months ago

When your "bluffs" still have EQ against his calling range, they arent bad betting hands as it self. Anyway, concerining c-betting you can basically categorize your bet in different ways. Flopping 2nd pair with A5s on k52r, can be considered a thin valuebet that sometimes get called by worse / protection when we want his JT to fold and we simply can take the pot down OTF while avoiding strange situations OTT. Range polarization comes in play OTT and OTR.

BigFiszh 9 years, 6 months ago

Simple conclusion is that we can't play GTO on the flop if we continue with 100% frequency.

That is not correct, you might want to dive a little bit deeper into the material, this might be a good start:

http://www.runitonce.com/nlhe/valuebetbluffhands-ratio/#/comment-150201

Ganz1987 9 years, 6 months ago

Many thanks, this is marvelous. I was really confused by all of it. GTO is hard man! :) That and some new stuff on RIO cleared the air. Many thanks

Jownz 9 years, 6 months ago

I used to have a few problems about MDF and how we calculate our value/bluff ratio combos but thanks to BigFiszh great post I am feeling quite sure about it now.

Edit:
"So, how much air and weak draws do we need to remove from the betting range to make the whole thing look quite okay when we bet half the pot? We need 25% of bluffs for 75% of value"

It is not correct, if we bet 1/2Pot for example its 10$ in the Pot we bet 1/2
5/15(10+ our 5risk) = 0,33 1-a = 0,66 means his MDF is 66% so our bet has to work in 33% to reach BE point.
His Pot odds are 25% (5/15+5) so our bluffingfreq is about 25% to make his weakest bluffcatcher indifferent... so if we have lets say 50valuecombos we have to add 17bluffcombos ( 50* 0,25/0,75= 16,666)

Be the first to add a comment

Runitonce.com uses cookies to give you the best experience. Learn more about our Cookie Policy