twinskat

Patrick,

I really like your vids, and for the most part they are very clearly presented. But when you summarized the 'take-away' for the first hand (about 17:00) you had a complicated way of making your point. My first language is English, and I had trouble following you.

Any way you might be able to insert a slide for "take-aways" in the future? It would make it easier for us, and perhaps you might notice if it is not clear as well?

great vids, thank you.

TK

If we can get the PFR’s betting range, since Btn folds we can let PIO decide BB’s defend range. But very good point about changing UTG+1’s Bet range to reflect 3way Flop action

TK

Seed2Shade BigFiszh

Good points both of y’all.

1/. I did not adjust the UTG+1 bet/call range to reflect 3way Flop

2/ The Turn x/r Frequencies I highlighted were not meant to be deceptive. I just figure that anytime there is a mix the EVs will be close (will try and show EV /Freq boxes next time

So- 2 questions:

1/. Is the BB defend range ok to complete the action?

2/ what type of betting range will we give UTG+1 to bet Flop?

keep in mind that PFR may not want to cap his range too severely 3way on Flop.

TK

PS. Thanks for looking back on this thread y’all- I appreciate it

the above is the assumed range for the BB defend vs UTG+1 Opn & BTN Flat. I took Ryan's and Seed2Shade's advice and pared it back some. I also added a few combos to the UTG+1 Opn range.

the UTG+1 range Pre is below...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qnmpy2svqb8gsgj/A87r%20on%20RIO%20forum%20wider%20range%20for%20UTG.cfr?dl=0

if you want to look at the exact sim, here is a dropbox link

I will be adjusting the ranges as well, just to get an idea of what is happening

TK

BigFiszh I admit I am getting confused... This is an UTG+1 Opn, a BTN flat, and a BB defend vs both opponents Pre Flop. So the range 17.36% range is for the Pre Flop BB defend. I know it might be too loose, but thought with the extra money in, it might be close. Especially live, which I mostly play (I do realize that this is probably an online game though)

The above 8.67% Range is thus the UTG+1 Open range that I think is too tight, but it is the one I used to come up with the first version of the PIO sim.

You may notice that 98s highlighted as a check/raise is a pretty small portion of the range available. It seems that this sim likes a Flop check/raise with 98s on this Flop - so there are fewer left on Turn to choose from (which may be a reason it picks so many of them)

Interesting spot for sure....

TK

BigFiszh a day ago
Two things:
1) I checked it with CREV, it's almost "impossible" to define a model where x/r > x/c, even if I define a complex model with different river runouts and different strategies on each riverset.

Bigfiszh- was surprised when I ran the above and then read your comment. I am assuming your ranges are quite different than the ones I assumed.

Would you mind posting your assumed ranges? This has turned out to be a pretty interesting spot for me, and would appreciate diving into it a little more.

TK

I should also point out the PIO ranges show ‘combos’ not ‘percentages’. So T5s is only called 10% of the time. 96s only 20% & 97s only 40%

TK

ok Ryan, it looks loose defend for BB to me also

But remember, Btn called the 3x Opn so BB only pays 4 to see a $19 Flop pot

lets think of 2 ranges for UTG+1 and 2 defends for BB so we can play with it some
(1 loose 1 tighter?). or (1 polar 1 merged?)
TK

here is a rough estimate of the BB defend range.

Anybody want to change things?

TK

I am sure this is too tight for a pre flop Opn, but what combos are we adding?

TK

can we first agree on the Open Range for +1? It is a full ring game, and so expect a very tight Open style.

We can work from there...

Also, we check/call the Turn, what is our plan for various rivers?

I get your thinking about 'crippling' ourselves, but I was thinking about it more in terms of getting paid for less than a full shove on Turn. I am sure you are right, but wondered about sizes and actions that can check/call Turn, and then collect enough on various Rivers, many of which are scary for Villain.

TK

So I was going through the River cards:

offsuit 9's (3)
offsuit Ts (3)
offsuit 5s (3)
offsuit 4s (3)

all may kill the action.

Spades (9) may influence our getting max value, since 3 of the 9 flushes make a 4 card straight out there.

board pairing cards (10) may also hurt our chances to collect value

so 31 cards are clearly issues for Hero, Villain or both.... hnmmmmmm

If villain has better flush draw than we do, he cannot have a pair. With our having 98ss, he must have KQss, KJss, KTss, (likely) or K7ss and worse for the Kings. (unlikely)

QJss, QTss, seem plausible, with lower Q's unlikely?

JTss only for the Jacks right?

Based on this, I would think the FD is good for us if it hits, and being OOP hurts us on River trying to collect.

For a Riverd Trips to beat our pair, would require Villain to have either a 8,7, or 6, which with us holding an 8, seems harder. He would have had to Open UTG+1 with combos that we block or open wider than I expect.

BigFiszh if there are big mistakes here, please let me know, but based on the above, I would be tempted to check/raise here big, leaving no perceived Fold Equity and plan on calling if he shoves. If he just calls, I can check brick rivers, and bet the ones where my Equity improves?

My hand with its blockers seems to match up well against his draws, and if they miss, I expect to be losing to his value "KK and lower" and some "AX" that did not fold to the Turn x/r.

My thinking is, I am behind some, but with a lot of outs if in fact I AM behind. I am ahead of other draws, and checking river may get me to showdown with a winning hand?

I check/raise to $100 leaving $118 behind into a $243 River pot if we hit.

TK

JamesYang I really like this thougth. Even if I do not wind up doing it, it adds value to be thinking of all possible actions!

So, we have a huge combo draw, on the Turn:
1/ Are we going to stack off with our outs?
2/ If we do stack off, are we thinking we are ahead?
3/ If we do raise, and get a fold, were we behind to begin with?
4/ Is the value of check calling the highest EV? what about check/raise/call -- check/raise fold -- or donk- or donk/call - or donk/raise/call- or donk/raise/fold ?

any Ten or 5 on the River is not to the nuts. Any spade is also not to the nuts. You may already have the best hand. If you are shoved on are you thinking it is higher EV to call than to just call the original bet?

UTG+1 bet into 2 opponents on a dry Ace high flop, I would think if he double barrels, he either has a weak hand, or an Ace. Will he be folding the Ace? What weaker hands do you lose to?

If you x/r the Turn, what is your plan for the River? Are you shoving all of them? or just spades? or straights? How many bluffs ?

Not saying you are wrong to check/raise, just wondering what your feelings are about these issues?

TK

Spelly,

Here is what I think the end result would be....

Run PIO over whatever subset of Flops

Run Agg Report to look for clusters

Open CSV report and try and see if there is something interesting...

Take a look at the Check Freq above and notice how JJ & TT with a 7 or lower kicker all get checked 95% or more, while the rest have a significant drop off?

TK

spelly,

I took KRab's comment to mean you could run an Aggregation Report

then you will see a file that you can save, which once you run it, you will get an Excel Sheet (remember you need CSV to be clicked), that will give you general numbers.

You examine the numbers to cluster the types of flops

At least IF I am understanding KRab correctly, never a certainty...

TK

*I am currently studying the 184 flops that cover most of the game. - Spelly writes*

KRab-

could you address this part for me?

I was under the impression that PIO flop subsets do a reasonably good job of approximating the Total Aggregation numbers if we ran the sim for 1755 flops. But not that the 184 flops were in any particular way representative of the actual flop gametree.

I may not be making this clear, but am trying to figure out if the subsets are used best for 'averages' as opposed to thinking you can run through them to spot differences.

Obviously there will be differences noted on many flops, but just wondering if there are perhaps major holes in the subsets that relying on 184 subsets may not expose.

TK

PS cool idea, looking forward to it

1/do you expect the opponents to make more mistakes versus your check than if you bet?

2/ Would you expect splashy players who just limp and overlimp to be aggro (stabby) in a 5 way pot?

3/ Do you think the size Cbet you use will be more or less than their stabbing range, and if so, how does your money go in on turn or river?

4/ What cards would you expect them to shut down on? If an Ace comes, will you get paid? or will they fold? How about K, T, 9 or 8's?

5/ Could this be a reversed free roll spot, where they always fold but you give them free cards that could crush you? If so, with 4 opponents who have possible set mines still, you are attempting to dodge 8 bullets (not counting straight & GS possibilities) Are you okay with this?

Multiway , OOP I would Cbet small on this board, and let "splashy opps" make mistakes

TK

nice vid, have a question about xr sizes...
If villain knows we are using a "multiplier" size xr as opposed to a "% of Pot" does IP not have an added reason to bet smaller sizings? Its a clairvoiyant game where each side knows what is coming. If you use 1/2 pot and full pot check raise sizes, have you seen major differences?

TK

That is a valuable tip, maybe sticky that somewhere obvious, but also just searched for Pio Solver, and it came up with only relavent vids. Thanks for the help!

yeah, and I think we all understand the huge undertaking it would be to retroactively go back and tag all the vids..., but moving forward?

This seems like a feature that most sites have, and have to say, I think it is an 'oversight' that RIO does not have it....

thanks for getting back to us so quickly
TK

Eddel writes:
"Lets say im specifically looking to learn more about final table play. Then i want to see all the videos available on that topic and maybe compare them a bit"

James, maybe I am not understanding it either, but to me it seems clear he is interested in "final table play". How about you try and filter for exactly 'that' and see what you get? I did, and I agree with eddel999, it is not easy.

I think the search function could be much better as well. (Not trying to pile on). What if you added some 'tags' to each video, and then let users search the tags?

TK

PS I know its some work to go back and tag vids, but moving forward? Might be a decent idea?

if you run aggregation reports in Pio it will show Eq ‘R’ for each flop in the spreadseet

TK

i might also want to think about "lines" as opposed to an individual street.

For example, if you focus on only Turn bet sizings, will solver start to adjust on Flop and River so that it skews the results? Knowing you only have one bet size option may give you some unusual reactions unless you really study the other lines in depth.

for instance, it used to be 'standard' that if you were looking at Flop bet sizings, you could just input 2/3 PSB on Turn and River and the EV would be the same as many different bet sizings ( I think I remember this correctly), but it turned out that although the EV did not change much, the frequency of solver Checks/ bets/ raises on the Flop changed a lot in some spots. (and my memory is hazy, so if this is way off base, please correct me)

Just saying that perhaps you should look at Flop bet size options, combined with Turn bet options, combined with River Bet options, and think in terms of "lines to take" ?

TK

stumbras,

i wound up doing exactly what you are asking about, bought GTO Plus just to train with it. At least I can configure for ranges that are real life ....

TK

Francesco-

At the beginning you mentioned 200bbs as stack size I think

if this is correct, how is this “extremely deep” ?

100bbs is standard , if you double up once I might get the ‘deep’ idea, but it I was expecting something closer to 300-500bbs

TK

Ben, this comment by you years ago made a huge difference in my understanding NLHE. (thanks for chiming in back then)

Was there ever a question, comment, or discussion that made a big impact on your learning curve?

Happy Holidays!

TK

Uri,

could you leave the Sim details in the comments section please? It would be a lot easier if you wanted us to check out other flops if we are comparing 'apples to apples'...

thanks

TK

One of your strongest videos so far Chris!

I can almost feel your excitement in presenting this. Any chance you can get this excited for the rest of your vids?

THAT would be awesome :)

TK

"Villain- weak reg"....

how so? Was he passive bad? If so, what do you think he is check raising PSB on Flop? Followed up by big but not huge Turn bet?

Smells a lot like a set, turned FH if he is passive type...

so, is he that type?

TK