jpg7n16

Well it's a bit odd but I think it comes down to hero thinking there is more fold equity from repping the nut flush (with nut blocker) + equity against the range that fires twice and gives up, than there is equity of AK vs opps river betting range

So my guess is that your friend felt there was enough equity to call turn planning on using any heart as a bluff and hoping to check it down on any non heart. Prob assuming he's beat if a non heart hits and villain shoves. (Opp could easily have KK, QQ, AK)

But that opp might barrel twice with 88+, AQ+ and give up on many river cards.

Maybe it's true at his level that shoving on the Heart river gets extra folds from AA or AK, or that it prevents him from getting 3barrel bluffed Off his hand, but I don't know that's enough to be worth it at mine.

I'd kinda had his number most of the day. Got stacks in with him earlier my KhKx vs AhQx on hhh flop and held up. Many other hands I'd had him outkicked and won smaller pots, by then he'd 3bet me and take down the pot really often pre.

A lot of people around the table knew him by name and he knew people joining the table by name so he has to play there often. Not sure if he's a winner but def a reg. This was my first shot at 2/5 game.

I couldn't figure if even an agro player would bluff raise/value raise less in a 5way pot when the tight guy raised, bet an A high flop (5way) and got called. Just don't think he could bluff there often enough so I folded.

But it felt super weak to fold AK on Axx flop to a single bet and raise. Was wondering if I was playing scared cause of the higher limit. (Normally play the 1/2 game)

Ok. Looks like consensus is I overdid the trying to let him barrel off idea.

Thought about 4betting pre and let my table image get the best of me. I was playing really tight vs 3bets so thought a 4bet would send too many warning bells and shut him down. Or even fold TT-QQ.

Also on flop I normally would shove the low flop in such a big pot. But since the biggest mistake (if you can call it that) he was making was barreling large with 1 pair hands thought it was better to trap and let him keep firing.

Ultimately I folded to the A on turn. Anything 7-K I shove it in. Thanks guys

Not sure I understand. Making it $20 pre may still have gotten 3 callers. I'd raised to $15 plenty of times where everyone folded or just one caller. Raising bigger pre doesn't change the critical point in the hand.

And your post flop strategy is to put over half my stack in then fold river? If I call $180 I'm expecting him to barrel $300ish on turn.

What range does an agro player have to raise like this in a 5-way pot?

If you 5bet to $120-130 pre, there's just 1 PSB left to go. Doesn't feel that different, but makes it easier to play. Is he really going to call 1/3 of his stack, then fold JJ-KK on a low flop to a PSB? I don't think so. By the time he calls you, he's committed himself to the pot.

I also believe that is true by him calling the flop bet of $70. He's put 1/2 his stack in. He's committed. Therefore you bet turn, cause he's committed.

I don't get your logic to not bet turn. He's so good he'll fold KK on turn, but not good enough to fold pre or on flop? I'd put him in the spot to make the tough fold. As you played it, you didn't give him the option of making a mistake and putting more in.

I also don't think I'd fold. 16 hands isn't enough to know how he plays his hands.

I've seen short stack players in this spot show up with all sorts of things. Sure, sometimes a slowplayed straight, set or 2 pair, a better 9 or a KcXc, Kh7h type hand. But also, 98, 97, 85, 75, 76 that missed. There are 2 missed flush draws, and it's not that large of a bet. At those stakes you might even see A7o or A8o (even AJ) that missed and tried to bluff.

It's not a sure thing, but getting 2.5/1, you only need to be right about 1/3 of the time. IMO he'd bluff at least that often.

My guess is that many players in that spot think, "shoot I missed, well I don't have that much left anyways, may as well go allin and see if he folds. If he calls I need to rebuy anyways..."

You haven't mentioned anything about who Villian is or how he's been playing. You shouldn't play identical vs every player.

If he's the type who only raises for value you should 3bet flop. He says he has a good hand, make it look like a flush draw trying to buy the pot. Maybe to $9-10.

If he's been bluffing often, I like the b/call. Let him fire again on turn. I would not have been so scared on the 4 turn. You specifically took that line to keep his range wide, 76 is possible but only a small portion of his range. However there are now more bad rivers that kill action (spade, 7, 6, prob A would too). Would have stuck with your plan to c/r for value. Unless he's crazy and will barrel 3x no matter what comes

I don't even think he needs to be bluffing for you to call. He could have several hands he thinks he's value betting. AhKh, KhQh, KhJh, KTs, AA, QQ (that doesn't believe you could have a K by the river. But I think he could easily bluff here too out of desperation with some missed draws. Getting nearly 3:1 makes that river call really easy. You lose to 88, TT or KK and beat everything else.

Fwiw - on turn when he bets $3 he's committing himself and 55 is way ahead of his bet/call range. If you think you're ahead there, shove don't call.

Flop can go either way, raise or call. But the call is with intention of getting it in on the turn.

"Just because your value range is tight doesn't mean you automatically
over bluff."

Ok I'm new here and really am trying to learn. In my experience, people don't make calculations and 4bet the same range, they do more "in the moment" reads and turn hands into a bluff. So unless your strategy is to 4bet bluff only 22 or 33, or exactly 24 combos of other hands, I see people 4bet bluff with all sorts of hands. At least from watching videos online.

Which makes sense. They fold all the time to 4bets, so lets bluff more than optimal. That makes sense to me.

"Also if your opponent folds to 4-bets a lot then flat calling AK and
instead bluff raising some worse hands becomes a better strategy.
I.e. if villain is folding dominated aces to your 4-bet a lot then
flatting AK and keeping those dominated aces in villain's range is
very high value"

Yeah I get that sounds nice to keep worse hands in his range, but this is where I don't understand the why behind it. If that's true, why would you ever 4bet for value against someone who folds often to 4bets? If keeping AK in is good, then keeping AA and KK in must be good as well. They dominate plenty of hands opp could be 3betting with, and will likely get several worse hands to barrel into them as Cbets, etc. Winning big bets from hands that would have folded pre.

That's what I don't get. The same reasons you give for one hand, apply to another - but see no problem in raising those.

So why ever value 4bet vs them? Just 4bet bluff and call all your best hands. Right? They won't know you're only 4bet bluffing cause they fold and never see what you're doing.

And if their 5bet range is so tight, that it truly makes sense to fold AKo (AA KK only), there really aren't that many hands willing to get it all in when you have AA.

not sure I understand... so from UTG, your 4bet range is AA, KK and a number of bluffs? Which means your 4bets UTG include way more combos of bluff hands, which means I could technically 5 bet shove any 2 and show a profit since you'd fold too often.

Which if I'm 5 bet shoving often, you should be easily be calling with at least QQ+, AK - so that would need to be in your range.

If you're ever going to 4bet bluff from UTG, wouldn't that mean you need QQ+, AK in your range?

And if you're not going to 4bet bluff from UTG, but only have AA and KK as value, then your opps are always correct to fold anything except AA. (They'd fold KK correctly because of blockers making your hand AA too often)

I totally get that some percent of the time you should call with big hands vs 3bet, I just don't understand a strategy that always calls with it.

4bet pre is fine. Can't only 4bet AA and KK...

"doubt I will get many calls from a ThXx if he even has any."

So if you had AhKh, would you also have checked for the same reason? Check the nut flush because he prob won't call that often?

Hopefully you see what I'm getting at there. Just because he most likely won't call with a worse hand, doesn't mean you don't even give him a chance! I'm not sure what the % is that he'll call a river bet with a badly played KK, QQ, JJ, or ThTx, 9h9x, 88, 77, AQ, AxTh, etc. But it's more than 0%. They can't call a bet you don't make.

If you'd ever bluff here (given that he's checked 3x) you need to have some value bet flush hands to balance. More than just the nuts. (well, 2nd nuts to Th9h)

Step 1: find every table he's on and join the waitlist + add him to your favorites
Step 2: patiently wait for a good hand
Step 3: if he acts after you, limp good hand wait for action to come back (see what everyone else does first)
Step 4: stick chips in and hope for the best
Step 5: if you're not comfortable risking the money you have on the table, cash out and come back later

Sure the math says Q2s is a call, but why bother? You're about to get a better opportunity on the next hand. I'd do 77+, A8+ and KT+ (if last to act) if multiple people behind you, AJ+, 99+

Don't worry about him having 5-6x your chips. If you adjust properly you're very likely to double up. Plus he has the whole table to deal with - not just you. And you can double up and cash out. Or try to double through him twice.

You can also get AA or KK and lose too. ;-)