dynosoar

2nd this turn bet^. I think we have to bet for value & because so many draws/worse hands. If we are checking this though, we have to call this river IMO.

I like folding this turn. This turn is where we need to evaluate our opponents hand strength and evaluate our following actions.

Fold the flop. Continuing with little/no equity is not our game plan. Also running the bluff on the river is not too convincing giving the actions. If we were going to bluff this river we have to bet the turn. I also theorize that we should not run 3 street bluffs with no information leading us to do so.

I would fold this, simply because we don't expect a lot of ther calling ranges pre to want to get it in on this board. So we have his range heavily weighing hands that beat us with one or two we don't. We can find better spots to exploit our opponents. IMO this is one of those spots where everything in you wants to call but at the same time you know you shouldn't. Maybe he makes us fold with Kx & AJs, if so well done. If not we took a stab with what we expect to be the best hand and fold when we know we're beat. If it were just the fish I would snap this off and obv pay him here but with both shoving I'm prolly rolling my eyes clicking the fold button and taking their monies soon enough.

Nit up.

This is fine as played. We shouldn't call because we don't have much equity in the hand now and it's gonna be harder for us to call a river bet. Shut down. Also merits to 3betting this pre.

Check for S/D. No reason to bet/bluff. Not getting anything that beats you to fold with this line.

I'd likely not CB this flop, which sucks - but we don't get a lot of hands to fold. If I did, I understand db'ing. On this river, it's a shit spot. I'd expect you to ship it with like all of your range so if you throw out like a couple $ bet, I'd expect him to ship a ton of his range (better+bluffs) & only call with worse. So IMO I think we should be checking the flop & betting small on this river. Any line IMO on the river is fine. If we c/f that's fine. If we 3bar AI, I don't see him folding a lot here which is why IMO that's probably our worst option.

I'd just hate checking for this reason: If he has no heart, he's likely shoving now. If he has a heart, he's still likely shoving now. So a huge % of his range is going to ship this river when checked to. That's why I'd much rather b/f ~3$ here. Yes our odds sucks because we'd likely want to call when shipped on, but it at least accomplishes something. When they call, we're likely ahead. When they ship, they are way ahead or way behind.

This spot really sucks though so I'm not really sure of our BEST option as all of them now suck.

I'd still be betting & probably fold to a raise as I don't see him c/r the river with a ton of hands that don't beat us/chop. If we don't bet, I think this is a big mistake as he's going to call with worse/fold.

I don't like calling this pf.

I'd definitely ship the turn & size my flop-bet to do just that with under PSB, but we have just over a PSB which is all-in-all the same. So I'd still ship the turn.

Which means we should be calling if it's even less? I guess I'm just missing something. We're saying playing draws like this is good, yet we don't have much reason other then we have pot odds, implied odds, & we can't raise because he's likely far ahead. I agree with this, we do. I just don't agree that playing our draws like this is exactly what we want.

If our villian was more aggressive, I can understand calling. It's just his 3b range is super nitty, we have a hand that we have ~30% equity against & a lot of this equity is draw equity which we obviously aren't going to be able to raise that often which IMO takes away from the strength of our hand.

We're going to play our hand exactly like this: fold a huge %, call-down worse, & win ~1/3 of the time which IMO isn't very profitable for QJs when we're likely to play for stacks. I'd almost be happier with a hand like 78s where a lot of our raising range is going to consist of lower boards our villian likely has an over-pair or AK-AQ where we have some FE, we can call/raise more for value. His hand range contains a lot of better blockers for QJs including hands like AQ, AK, KK, AA, QQ, JJ, TT. A lot of the reason we are saying we should call should be the exact reason we don't call pf.

Vs 6% 3b where nothing we hit really accomplishes much? The point is that everyone believes we have ~0 FE with our combo-draw which really defeats the purpose. If you want to c/c 30% IP almost every single time, it becomes less valuable & if we can't play our draws aggressively nor our TP - we should fold.

The value of our draws isn't that we are potentially going to have the best hand - it's that we give out FE, our equity, & the combination of things that are important about these hands.

3b this pre - I don't mind defending, but don't see any reason to not 3b. We have A4s OOP.

If we bet the turn more, we can jam this river which would be my main goal. <---

BUT As played: I'd consider shipping the river, still. I don't expect him to fold Ax, nor do I expect him to believe we have 2x. I still think your river-sizing is fine though.

Don't think we need to run bluff lines like this at 5NL.

His 6% 3b: 88+,ATs+,KQs,AQo+

Upon thinking about this a bit more, I just don't see a reason to call pre with this hand which is where my thoughts keep leading me. The only argument is that he's not going to fold which is likely just as valid which is why we shouldn't put our self in this spot.

Now my last thought on this topic: Vs this 3b range, we shouldn't be calling with QJs for a lot of the reasons described.

1: The value of position is more/less useless vs this guy.

2: We aren't going to WANT to raise him on a ton of boards, nor are we going to be too confident GII.

3: We are going to have to c/c with 30% equity with our draws, which IMO sucks.

4: TP isn't what we're aiming for as we have a weak kicker & when we GII, we're likely behind.

The only reason I'd call pf: If I knew villian was going to get out of line more often & 3b a wider range where we CAN raise a lot of boards OR he's going to CB too often & have a lot of FE & GII vs a wider range.

ALL-IN-ALL: I think if we managed to call (which I now think is a lot worse) vs this villian: our above posters are correct, we should probably call with good odds. I just don't think that this is the best way to go about playing your draws period - which is why this is in fact the worst spot to call hands like this pf vs this player.

OK I'm done..

Yes I understand calling is OK, which isn't what I'm debating. What's more important is why we are calling pre-flop vs this guy. It's not to c/c our draws. That seems spewy. It seems like we're calling to get boards like this, especially this turn.

More just a combination of things. I hate c/c because we end up c/fing too often (especially hands like this) where our opponent could be doing the same thing, but he ends up with a different result. It's just a matter of I never play draws passively (for the most part) & with a combo-draw in a 3b pot, I'm just likely not folding & if I'm not folding, I'd like to give some FE with my draw-hand. Let me rephrase, it's not that we don't get paid. It's just that we are going to hit this K a slim % & the only other things in the hand that give us equity is our bd equity. We shouldn't be calling pre if we aren't planning on playing our draws aggressively.

Yes we obviously know his 3b range is super thin, but I'd expect him to fold to a flop/turn c/r some % of the time. I just don't see much point to calling this period pf & if we do call, we need to play flops/turns like this more aggressively. I don't think we called to hit our Q or J. He has a lot of hands that are going to call, but we also have a ton of cards that are good/great for us & we're never drawing dead.

So my main point is this: I'd fold this pre. If I managed to call, I'd at the very least raise this turn. Not necessarily that we don't get paid, because when a random low diamond comes I don't see him folding a ton of his range nor a K, but I don't think c/cing our combo-draw is the best way to go about this hand. I also like calling this flop, just despise calling both because our equity is severly diminishing. This is just my POV & the laundry list of things I'm thinking about when raising boards like this. Feel free to pick this apart, it'd be much appreciated.

Little FE vs what range? We don't need blockers, we have a hand with a lot of future equity which is why raising is like extra crucial in my mind. If we played this hand, we didn't play it to hit TP. Just my opinion. If we call IP, I think raising has to happen - it's basically why we call period for boards like this where we utilize our FE.

But I'd rather give out some FE & GII & lose with a hand like this rather then c/c c/c c/f when we miss. That's just my opinion. Our c/r also give a lot of fold equity & our hand has a lot of equity reguardless of our villians GII range.

I think this being a 3b pot, it makes it even more valuable & we want to be paid when we're there which just isn't happening that often when the cards we need run off. So for me it's a combo of our FE & betting for value which is what we should be doing with draws.

But wouldn't that mean we should bet at least HP so we can GII on the river a lot? We also wouldn't mind getting c/r on the turn either. I feel like this is the perfect turn card & not betting means we can raise the river a lot, but I still believe we get our stack in more often by betting the turn which is what we want to do with an overpair+nfd & our line is pretty simple/standard no matter what outcome reveals itself.

I think we need to CB the turn.

I like either c/ring this flop or turn. I hate playing draws passively & c/cing with them period. When I do call this flop, I want this turn so if I'm not raising the flop, I'm raising the turn because our hand has more value in doing so because we're likely to not get paid when we hit & we put him in a tough spot with a lot of his CBing range.

Bet for value, not to bluff vs these types of players. Stationy players don't care what you represent, their hand is whats important. That's why we just simply don't need to bluff them (very very rarely you should ever bluff them).

"If i cbet, i mostly get called and if the turn is blank i'm lost. So i cbet with near zero FE and play x/f on the turn."

If this is the case, we are going to do what on the turn when we CB? Assume most of his range consists of air/sd's/lower pairs? If this were the case we aren't finding ourselves in a hard spot, unfortunately we have quite a large range still. If we check this, we accomplish a few things: 1: keep the pot in relativity to our hand (small for 2nd pair) 2: can bet the turn more profitably 3: now have a relatively small pot on the river & can get more value from 2nd pair

I'm just saying if your CBing & we aren't gonna get anything to fold, then we don't need to build a bigger pot with this hand. We'd rather have TP+ & barrel the idiots who call us down.

After raising this flop, I'm barreling any turn (100%) & most likely the river. My logic being I want to get paid when I hit. I may give-up with some reads. With little/no info I am barreling this, the river is a little closer but still a lot of draws bricked off so if I did bet the river here, it would be a smaller bet.

3b pre. From previous experience, I'm not bluffing this river at 20NL.

3b pre, we're OOP with AJo. Whether villian is iso-raising here wide or not, this is a perfect spot to 3b. The thing is when we don't, we put ourselves in spots where we are OOP with AJ vs villian (or two) with little/no info which doesn't lead me towards calling this because our plan post-flop is going to consist of c/f more often then not which we don't want to happen with AJ.

This doesn't really help you though. The answer your looking for won't be found.

Call, we keep his bluff/semi-bluffs in to the river which puts him in a tougher spot OTR with under PSB behind. I agree if this player is the type to c/f his missed draws, I'd raise the turn.

Don't CB with 0 FE.

The turn being a blank in all of these needs to be you shutting down vs a fish. Fish are easy. We can bet for value, almost never bluff, & still make money.