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dhara111

9 points

Comment | dhara111 commented on Beating 'GTO'?

Sorry about the formatting, I drafted the post in word, then pasted it into here and the formatting messed up.

Oct. 26, 2013 | 10:37 p.m.

Comment | dhara111 commented on Beating 'GTO'?


Here
are some postflop stats:

31k hand sample:

cbet
IP

flop
48%

turn 54%

river 58%

3bet pot cbet OOP

flop
42%

turn 60%

river
79%

Fold to cbet OOP (Just a note, I think that a lot of the bots play is based on Applications of NL Holdem, where it plays in a way in which it calls enough to make your "bluffs" breakeven, so this is highly dependent on the betsizing - fwiw, a little thing I've been doing in an attempt to exploit this is betting big with gutshots etc, as, if called, the bots range is really strong and so there is likely a lot of implied odds if the gutshot hits.)

flop 37%

turn 30%

river
40%

Fold
to cbet IP

flop
31%

turn 24%

river
36%

x/r

flop
10.5%

turn 6%

river
6%

fold
to x/r

flop
42%

turn
23%


river
53%


I
have been testing all sorts of outrageous lines with success for
example:

Calling the turn and mindonking the river with missed draws/hands without showdown value - the bot seems to fold an exploitably large amount in this spot...If my feeling that it is using a "call to make opponents bluffs breakeven model." then I'm not sure how it applies in the sense that, if it's range is really wide, and you minbet, does it call with, say, J high because if it doesn't, that means that you have a profitable bluff? based on this situation, I don't think it does.

Using
minbets to get to showdown for basically whatever price I want as the
bot does not EVER lead without the initiative. A minbet on the flop
and turn is usually sufficient to get to showdown with A/K high or
other weak hands with some showdown value.

Min
3betting its raises as when it calls (with all his value hands
excluding the nuts) it checks the river 100% allowing us to never
face a tough river decision.

Min
cbetting after 3betting on boards 9 high or lower as if it calls its
range is 100% overcards.

Minbet leading after flatting pre
– the bot almost never slowplays (I've seen it do it once or twice,
but for the most part, it should just be a “non 0%”) so when the
bot calls the flop, it's range is essentially extremely capped.

GameTheory:
You bring up a good point with regards to overbetting vs a capped
range. The bot appears to attempt to balance in some spots for
example: It checks after 3betting with air and AA, which of course
means that even though it has attempted to be “balanced”, the
weighting of AA to air is completely skewed towards air in so much
that the balancing doesn't really achieve a lot in that spot. However
there must be spots which he is totally capped (A common spot being
where it will always 4bet JJ+ / Aqs+ so when the 3bet is called, AJ
essentially becomes AK in terms or TP value, and is far easier to
play.) and a range of huge value bets with lots of bluffs prove
fruitfull.



DirtyD:
I am min4betting a polarized range which contains hands that are not
dominated by his 4bet calling range (86o and similar as well as hands
i'm willing to get it in pre with vs his 5bet shoving range) to
capitalize on it 5bet shoving at any stack depth and it is calling
4bets with a super defined range (ATo, ATs, AJo, KQo, KJo). I agree
that this is a fascinating puzzle due to our opponents ranges being
totally static. This is not about "beating GTO" or whatever
but instead beating up on a static strategy.

Ben: I have
constructed my opening size with each part of my range to play well
against its defending range with opening sizes varying from 2 to 20bb
based on my very rough estimations about which calling range is most
profitable to play against. For example: With A9o I open to 5bb; the
largest size where he still calls with all his Axo. I have a
sufficient hand sample (31k) to know its defending ranges vs various
sizes quite well. Limping is one avenue I have yet to explore...The
thing is here, I'm not sure what to take into account, I know the
ranges I'd like to be playing against his defending ranges, and have
developed a strategy accordingly, to make sure that I dominate the
majority of his range in the spots where that is possible...but, I'm
not sure whether that's the main factor to be thinking about in this
situation...In the earlier example, I raise A9o to 5BB, because he
fold A2-A7 when you raise to 6BB...however, as profitable as it's
going to be when he calls and you outkick him and can get three
streets from his aces when the board comes ace high, he is also
folding 58% of the time...and I'm having difficulty working out
whether it's going to be more profitable to win 1BB 58% of the time
and (really complicated formula which works out what your average BB
won is against his whole range) or whether it's more profitable to
use a different sizing.

Again,
thanks for all the responses/discussion. 

Oct. 26, 2013 | 10:36 p.m.

Comment | dhara111 commented on Beating 'GTO'?

Just to clarify, the program tries to play in a GTO way, but I'm positive it doesn't truly achieve that, or close to it. It has a lot of tendencies that should be massively exploitable such as: It never leads, if it doesn't have the initiative then it won't bet. It opens 92% of hands preflop for a minraise, and always cbets TP+, so it's checking back range is really weak - it's hard to balance correctly when it's range is so wide.

I've been experimenting with a few different betsizes and seeing how it responds, for example when I open raise to 20BB - it's 3bet range is 1010+, A10o+ and it 3bets to 70BB so no fold equity on a 4bet at all - this must be exploitable? it flat calls with 88, 99 KTs/KJs, QJ.

Also, if it 5bets - which it does with TT+ AQo+, then it 5bets Allin, no matter what the effective stacks are..If I MR open, get 3bet to 7BB, I min4bet to 14BB, It'll shove allin 300BB's deep w/ AQo.

I was wondering whether there was any way to tailor my betsize with my hands in order to increase my profit...If I'm playing against thie program and I get AA...Is opening to 2BB..6BB..20BB going to show much of a difference in the profit? I feel this is where I can gain the biggest edge, varying the betsize whereas the program doesnt vary at all...along the same lines, if I have the nuts on teh river, there must be an optimal betsize to bet...a 2BB bet on the river > a 1BB bet on the river, so there must be some sort of way to gain an edge in betsizing, I'm just not sure how best to work it out.

Are there any specific things I could look at postflop in order to determine other spots where it is inbalanced etc?

Thank you for the replies so far!

Oct. 23, 2013 | 11:55 p.m.

Post | dhara111 posted in NLHE: Beating 'GTO'?

Hey, on the site that I play on (not a mainstream site), there are a load of non-human players playing at a lot of the Hu tables. They are programmed to play GTO, and I have logged 1000's of hands against them. I'd like to learn how to beat them for a lot.

I've been analysing their stats in HEM but am unsure of how to construct my ranges in order to maximally exploit them, seeing as they don't vary their play based on you, but just play GTO based on your betsize. for example - these are their stats from the BB facing different opening sizes:

2BB - 73/15 (their 3betting value range is A10o+ and their 'bluffs' are suited connector type hands - as your opening size increases, the amount of bluffs they have in their 3bettign range decreases.)

3BB - 53/13

4BB - 44/14 (I assume the 3bet is actually less than 14, but the sample size is smaller.)

20BB - 13/8 (3bets and calls TT+ AJo+)Taking these preflop stats into account, I'm not sure what's the best sizing to use with my different hands. 

What should i be considering here? What stats should I look at postflop, in order to look for where to exploit them? Postflop, again they generally play GTO where they'll fold a % of their range based on what you bet, and RR with a 2:1 value to bluff ratio or similar (using gushots/OESD hands as their bluffs)

I've been varying my betsize based on my hand, for example, if I had 2nd pair type hand, I'll bet maybe 1/3 pot, because that makes me profitable against his calling range because it's so wide considering I bet so small, and I've been overbetting with my near nut hands knowing that he'll still call with the top X% of their range and I'll be good against it...though I'm not sure if this makes me nut hands more profitable than say, betting 2/3 pot would be?

They also have no leading range, and if they C/C the turn they will always check the river, and I have been minbetting the turn with very weak hands with some SD value such as A high, and checking back the river. I can provide any other stats if need be.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

Oct. 23, 2013 | 8:07 p.m.

I'm curious to when you say, in regards to check shoving the river with the flush in the last hand "I can certainly have plenty of bluffs here" what bluffs can you have? and what do you think you fold out? Also, I was wondering why you discount him raising the turn with his non SD diamonds?

Feb. 11, 2013 | 1:48 p.m.

In regards to how much you should be deviating from a GTO approach in order to exploit somebody, I read a really good analogy a while back. I can't remember who it was that said it otherwise I would give the credit but it was along the lines of "You should drive as fast as you can over the speed limit without getting caught against very observany police you should be able to manage 1 or 2 mph over, against extremely unobservant police go as fast as your car will allow." So just keep going as fast as you think you can get away with and slow down when you realise he's caught you.

Feb. 8, 2013 | 4:04 a.m.

I'm interested in this; and posted a similar topic that focussed on postflop but it didn't get many replies. In regards to preflop and building your ranges - against somebody who folds so much to 3bets you should adjust by both tightening your value range for 3betting and widening your bluffing range.

For example; (my comma button isn't working) if he's playing so tight that he's no getting in AQo; you should be flatting when you have AQ and have a very polarised range (maybe Ako+ QQ+) a widish call range and then bluff with that hands that aren't plus EV calls. Figuring out your bluff range here though is a case of bluffing as much as you can without him figuring out what you are doing and adjusting. ideally you would 3bet with every hand that wasn't a plus ev call or a value 3bet to make the most here but if you do that he will soon adjust and will no longer be explitable so you want to start out by bluffing with maybe 3x the amount of hands you are 3betting for value then add more if you feel you can get away with it. You don't really need to be worried about GTO here because in this situation you will be losing out on money by not playing exploitable yourself.

Feb. 7, 2013 | 9:13 a.m.

Also, a quick thing, after I watched the video linked here, it said how nowadays most really good HU players will flat a huge % of hands from the BB to a BTN open so I started to try and flat more (I was probably playing around 80% of hands from the BB on average when villain was opening around a similar amount, to start the match off, I would generally have a 3betting range of 1010+ AJo+ and then the bottom 10$ or so of hands in my defending range (75o, Q2o, 64s etc) roughly so I'd have a 1:1 ratio of bluffs to value and then I would start to widen my value range to include A9o+ 88+ and decrease my bluff range by maybe 50% if they were calling wide, and do the opposite of that if they were folding a lot. (My overall 3bet% would generally be between 17-20%, maybe a bit more if they opened more and a bit less if they opened less) but often I'd feel like I got exploited postflop.

They'd cbet a high % and I'd C/C a wide range because of this, I'd usually C/C bottom pair to TP, and C/R most gusthots that didn't have much SD value/overcards etc (basically the worst of the hands that I couldn't C/C) and C/F the rest, which is quite a high %, probably around 50. then the turn would come and I would be pretty lost as what to really do, I don't find I vary my play much at all depending on my opponent here, I just take a fairly fixed strategy and play that.

Feb. 4, 2013 | 7:32 a.m.

Often I'll be playing somebody and they'll open 80% on the BTN and cbet 1/2 pot 100% of the time...I don't really know what to do here. The problem with 99% of the videos I have watched is that they'll say what they do with their hand and why in this spot, for example, they flat with 10 9 from the BB and the flop will come 9 Q K or something then they will say "I have to call here because he cbets 100% and I'm ahead of his range"...I can understand why people do the things they do in videos with the specific hands they do, but they don't really ever go into what they do with their range, like are they exploiting the villain there by C/C really wide? how often are they C/F on that board when he cbets, and with what? what else are they C/C and C/R with in order to exploit villain? (I know you can say things like "How often does he double barrel, how often does he folds to C/R? what's your image? etc) but this is just a hypothetical hand to try to illustrate what i'm struggling with. Just analysing the hand you have vs their range isn't really that helpful in terms of adjusting and exploiting villains HU I find, what I'd like to know, or if anyone has any links to videos/articles that are helpful in terms of talking about this, that'd be a great help.

Sorry for the fairly long paragraph.

Feb. 4, 2013 | 7:21 a.m.

I watched that video, but didn't really get much from it to be honest...I mean, I'm talking about what do ou do with your whole range when you're playing someone who is doing X, Y, or Z? I've been playing people over the past few days who I thought were exploitable because they'll cbet 100% or they'll check back every top pair so their cbet range will be weighted towards air, or they'll never bluff rivers...but I don't feel like i'm exploiting them. For example I'd C/R maybe a 4:1 bluffs to air ratio when they are cbetting so much in an attempt to exploit them there, or I'll never bluffcatch rivers when they don't bluff...but I don't feel like i'm winning/exploiting them.

Preflop is fine, I know how to exploit them by adjusting my range from merged to polarised and the ratio of bluffs to value and so on and so forth, but postflop...I just feel lost in terms of how to adjust to people...with my whole range in spots.

Feb. 2, 2013 | 5:41 a.m.

Post | dhara111 posted in NLHE: Postflop adjustment theory
Sup folks, I've been playing a while and have recently got into HUNL from 6max. I'm not entirely sure how to adjust postflop in terms of complete ranges and how combinatrics fit into that. For example preflop, it's pretty easy to assign yourself a value range against somebody of what you would get in preflop when thinking about 3betting and then it's quite simple to figure out a bluffing ratio depending on how often villain folds/4bets etc.

Postflop though I'm quite unsure, it's easy to say "value bet thin and don't bluff vs calling stations" "bluff a lot vs really tight players etc." but I only really apply that on the river, and in this day and age, it's not really that simple as mmost players understand ranges etc. What I really want to know is how to specifically exploit certain postflop tendencies. I was playing somebody the other day who opened minraise opened ~70% OTB (the site I play on isn't supported by HEM/PT) and cbet 1/2 pot 100%, so I was attempting to exploit him by C/R a load on the flop and doing so by turning the best hand I'd usually fold to cbet on the flop and C/R them (If I had 67 and the flop was 10 9 2r, I'd C/R instead of C/F) after a while, he started to float and 3bet my flop C/R's so I thought the best thing to do would be to just C/R a complete value range, like the top 20% or so of my range on the flop, but I feel i'm not really ever exploiting people in the way I want to postflop...

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Jan. 30, 2013 | 9:31 p.m.

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