dhara111
9 points
Here
are some postflop stats:
31k hand sample:
cbet
IP
flop
48%
turn 54%
river 58%
3bet pot cbet OOP
flop
42%
turn 60%
river
79%
Fold to cbet OOP (Just a note, I think that a lot of the bots play is based on Applications of NL Holdem, where it plays in a way in which it calls enough to make your "bluffs" breakeven, so this is highly dependent on the betsizing - fwiw, a little thing I've been doing in an attempt to exploit this is betting big with gutshots etc, as, if called, the bots range is really strong and so there is likely a lot of implied odds if the gutshot hits.)
flop 37%
turn 30%
river
40%
Fold
to cbet IP
flop
31%
turn 24%
river
36%
x/r
flop
10.5%
turn 6%
river
6%
fold
to x/r
flop
42%
turn
23%
river
53%
I
have been testing all sorts of outrageous lines with success for
example:
Calling the turn and mindonking the river with missed draws/hands without showdown value - the bot seems to fold an exploitably large amount in this spot...If my feeling that it is using a "call to make opponents bluffs breakeven model." then I'm not sure how it applies in the sense that, if it's range is really wide, and you minbet, does it call with, say, J high because if it doesn't, that means that you have a profitable bluff? based on this situation, I don't think it does.
Using
minbets to get to showdown for basically whatever price I want as the
bot does not EVER lead without the initiative. A minbet on the flop
and turn is usually sufficient to get to showdown with A/K high or
other weak hands with some showdown value.
Min
3betting its raises as when it calls (with all his value hands
excluding the nuts) it checks the river 100% allowing us to never
face a tough river decision.
Min
cbetting after 3betting on boards 9 high or lower as if it calls its
range is 100% overcards.
Minbet leading after flatting pre
– the bot almost never slowplays (I've seen it do it once or twice,
but for the most part, it should just be a “non 0%”) so when the
bot calls the flop, it's range is essentially extremely capped.
GameTheory:
You bring up a good point with regards to overbetting vs a capped
range. The bot appears to attempt to balance in some spots for
example: It checks after 3betting with air and AA, which of course
means that even though it has attempted to be “balanced”, the
weighting of AA to air is completely skewed towards air in so much
that the balancing doesn't really achieve a lot in that spot. However
there must be spots which he is totally capped (A common spot being
where it will always 4bet JJ+ / Aqs+ so when the 3bet is called, AJ
essentially becomes AK in terms or TP value, and is far easier to
play.) and a range of huge value bets with lots of bluffs prove
fruitfull.
DirtyD:
I am min4betting a polarized range which contains hands that are not
dominated by his 4bet calling range (86o and similar as well as hands
i'm willing to get it in pre with vs his 5bet shoving range) to
capitalize on it 5bet shoving at any stack depth and it is calling
4bets with a super defined range (ATo, ATs, AJo, KQo, KJo). I agree
that this is a fascinating puzzle due to our opponents ranges being
totally static. This is not about "beating GTO" or whatever
but instead beating up on a static strategy.
Ben: I have
constructed my opening size with each part of my range to play well
against its defending range with opening sizes varying from 2 to 20bb
based on my very rough estimations about which calling range is most
profitable to play against. For example: With A9o I open to 5bb; the
largest size where he still calls with all his Axo. I have a
sufficient hand sample (31k) to know its defending ranges vs various
sizes quite well. Limping is one avenue I have yet to explore...The
thing is here, I'm not sure what to take into account, I know the
ranges I'd like to be playing against his defending ranges, and have
developed a strategy accordingly, to make sure that I dominate the
majority of his range in the spots where that is possible...but, I'm
not sure whether that's the main factor to be thinking about in this
situation...In the earlier example, I raise A9o to 5BB, because he
fold A2-A7 when you raise to 6BB...however, as profitable as it's
going to be when he calls and you outkick him and can get three
streets from his aces when the board comes ace high, he is also
folding 58% of the time...and I'm having difficulty working out
whether it's going to be more profitable to win 1BB 58% of the time
and (really complicated formula which works out what your average BB
won is against his whole range) or whether it's more profitable to
use a different sizing.
Again,
thanks for all the responses/discussion.
Oct. 26, 2013 | 10:36 p.m.
Just to clarify, the program tries to play in a GTO way, but I'm positive it doesn't truly achieve that, or close to it. It has a lot of tendencies that should be massively exploitable such as: It never leads, if it doesn't have the initiative then it won't bet. It opens 92% of hands preflop for a minraise, and always cbets TP+, so it's checking back range is really weak - it's hard to balance correctly when it's range is so wide.
I've been experimenting with a few different betsizes and seeing how it responds, for example when I open raise to 20BB - it's 3bet range is 1010+, A10o+ and it 3bets to 70BB so no fold equity on a 4bet at all - this must be exploitable? it flat calls with 88, 99 KTs/KJs, QJ.
Also, if it 5bets - which it does with TT+ AQo+, then it 5bets Allin, no matter what the effective stacks are..If I MR open, get 3bet to 7BB, I min4bet to 14BB, It'll shove allin 300BB's deep w/ AQo.
I was wondering whether there was any way to tailor my betsize with my hands in order to increase my profit...If I'm playing against thie program and I get AA...Is opening to 2BB..6BB..20BB going to show much of a difference in the profit? I feel this is where I can gain the biggest edge, varying the betsize whereas the program doesnt vary at all...along the same lines, if I have the nuts on teh river, there must be an optimal betsize to bet...a 2BB bet on the river > a 1BB bet on the river, so there must be some sort of way to gain an edge in betsizing, I'm just not sure how best to work it out.
Are there any specific things I could look at postflop in order to determine other spots where it is inbalanced etc?
Thank you for the replies so far!
Oct. 23, 2013 | 11:55 p.m.
Hey, on the site that I play on (not a mainstream site), there are a load of non-human players playing at a lot of the Hu tables. They are programmed to play GTO, and I have logged 1000's of hands against them. I'd like to learn how to beat them for a lot.
I've been analysing their stats in HEM but am unsure of how to construct my ranges in order to maximally exploit them, seeing as they don't vary their play based on you, but just play GTO based on your betsize. for example - these are their stats from the BB facing different opening sizes:
2BB - 73/15 (their 3betting value range is A10o+ and their 'bluffs' are suited connector type hands - as your opening size increases, the amount of bluffs they have in their 3bettign range decreases.)
3BB - 53/13
4BB - 44/14 (I assume the 3bet is actually less than 14, but the sample size is smaller.)
20BB - 13/8 (3bets and calls TT+ AJo+)Taking these preflop stats into account, I'm not sure what's the best sizing to use with my different hands.
What should i be considering here? What stats should I look at postflop, in order to look for where to exploit them? Postflop, again they generally play GTO where they'll fold a % of their range based on what you bet, and RR with a 2:1 value to bluff ratio or similar (using gushots/OESD hands as their bluffs)
I've been varying my betsize based on my hand, for example, if I had 2nd pair type hand, I'll bet maybe 1/3 pot, because that makes me profitable against his calling range because it's so wide considering I bet so small, and I've been overbetting with my near nut hands knowing that he'll still call with the top X% of their range and I'll be good against it...though I'm not sure if this makes me nut hands more profitable than say, betting 2/3 pot would be?
They also have no leading range, and if they C/C the turn they will always check the river, and I have been minbetting the turn with very weak hands with some SD value such as A high, and checking back the river. I can provide any other stats if need be.
Any help would be greatly appreciated, thank you.
Oct. 23, 2013 | 8:07 p.m.
Feb. 11, 2013 | 1:48 p.m.
Feb. 8, 2013 | 4:04 a.m.
For example; (my comma button isn't working) if he's playing so tight that he's no getting in AQo; you should be flatting when you have AQ and have a very polarised range (maybe Ako+ QQ+) a widish call range and then bluff with that hands that aren't plus EV calls. Figuring out your bluff range here though is a case of bluffing as much as you can without him figuring out what you are doing and adjusting. ideally you would 3bet with every hand that wasn't a plus ev call or a value 3bet to make the most here but if you do that he will soon adjust and will no longer be explitable so you want to start out by bluffing with maybe 3x the amount of hands you are 3betting for value then add more if you feel you can get away with it. You don't really need to be worried about GTO here because in this situation you will be losing out on money by not playing exploitable yourself.
Feb. 7, 2013 | 9:13 a.m.
They'd cbet a high % and I'd C/C a wide range because of this, I'd usually C/C bottom pair to TP, and C/R most gusthots that didn't have much SD value/overcards etc (basically the worst of the hands that I couldn't C/C) and C/F the rest, which is quite a high %, probably around 50. then the turn would come and I would be pretty lost as what to really do, I don't find I vary my play much at all depending on my opponent here, I just take a fairly fixed strategy and play that.
Feb. 4, 2013 | 7:32 a.m.
Sorry for the fairly long paragraph.
Feb. 4, 2013 | 7:21 a.m.
Preflop is fine, I know how to exploit them by adjusting my range from merged to polarised and the ratio of bluffs to value and so on and so forth, but postflop...I just feel lost in terms of how to adjust to people...with my whole range in spots.
Feb. 2, 2013 | 5:41 a.m.
Postflop though I'm quite unsure, it's easy to say "value bet thin and don't bluff vs calling stations" "bluff a lot vs really tight players etc." but I only really apply that on the river, and in this day and age, it's not really that simple as mmost players understand ranges etc. What I really want to know is how to specifically exploit certain postflop tendencies. I was playing somebody the other day who opened minraise opened ~70% OTB (the site I play on isn't supported by HEM/PT) and cbet 1/2 pot 100%, so I was attempting to exploit him by C/R a load on the flop and doing so by turning the best hand I'd usually fold to cbet on the flop and C/R them (If I had 67 and the flop was 10 9 2r, I'd C/R instead of C/F) after a while, he started to float and 3bet my flop C/R's so I thought the best thing to do would be to just C/R a complete value range, like the top 20% or so of my range on the flop, but I feel i'm not really ever exploiting people in the way I want to postflop...
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Sorry about the formatting, I drafted the post in word, then pasted it into here and the formatting messed up.
Oct. 26, 2013 | 10:37 p.m.