coldids

Leo,

that's a really good post, but I do wonder what our range looks like on the turn. I'm assuming villain doesn't expect us to have a whole lot of boats (we probably don't raise 32 otf very often, nor do we raise Q2 100%, so that leaves QQ, 33 and 22) while we can certainly have a lot of flush draws to raise the flop with these stacks and maybe some wraps/straight draws.

So considering that our range is (or at least looks) pretty drawy here, it seems like checking back a hand like this that can bluffcatch a lot of rivers (except this one, perhaps) is going to help our range quite a lot. Also, considering that our range looks very draw heavy, it's possible he ends up shoving an overpair for protection (regardless of whether he should or not), which could put us in a pretty gross spot if we do bet. I do agree that betting smallish is more likely to 'freeze' him into calling than betting bigger.

I also think it's a neat sizing for the obvious reason that it leaves just under pot on the river.

Christopher,

Tilt doesn't automatically mean you're foaming at the mouth and mashing the pot button every time you can; it can be much subtler and might just be something along the lines of "oh I've gotten set over setted here so many times before" that leads you to make suboptimal decisions.

Another tidbit that helped me a lot is the realization that people don't think like you do. If you just automatically assume everyone has the same thought processes that you have, you're going to have a really tough time beating those games. You really have to think of them as independent beings with their own tendencies (and flaws).

Lastly, are you maybe scared money in those games? If you feel uncomfortable having 2k at the table, you could try playing slightly smaller games or buying in for slightly less so that you feel more comfortable...

Guys, I don't think it's a great idea to reveal results just yet, even if it's just for compliments' sake. As for the hand itself, man, it's tough because so much depends on how big of a range you give him to begin with - I assume his 3-betting frequency is a bit higher than normal here because of the recent history, but still.

Do you have any idea in which direction his 3-betting range widens? Does he add more high pairs, more double suited stuff, more connectors, or all of these?

I haven't done any range calcs yet, but my gut says if you're folding anywhere, it's probably the flop? Your outs might not be totally clean, especially 5's and T's and turns are going to be super hard to play especially if he's gonna mash the pot button a lot...

Well, just remember that the same reason that you use to discount SB's having JT also applies to you, especially because you check behind the preflop raiser - i.e. he might think you'd bet the turn with JT most of the time to always (regardless of whether you would or not) because he's already checked twice and both CO and BTN checked behind the flop...

Don't think I even open this pre with such a laggy BTN behind. Flop just looks like a fold, you're not doing great vs. BB's range and if BTN decides to get it in you're going to be in pretty bad shape overall...

Against what hands exactly do you want to turn your hand into a bluff?

Yeah, I think you've picked a pretty good hand to do it with. You've got quite a few backdoors that'll enable you to continue on a lot of turns and it definitely adds a bit of deception to your game.

Are effective stacks 650? If so, I wouldn't 4b (You'd have a pot of 216 with almost 2.5x pot behind, with a pretty mediocre hand). I actually think the argument for limping made by Erik is pretty sound.

I agree that calling is probably better, but playing rivers is def kinda iffy because there are so few bricks (Any clubs, any diamonds, 4's, 5's and maybe even some other straight completing cards aren't really bricks if we can't narrow down his range)

I guess what I'm saying is that I'd need some more reads to determine what I'd do on the river on various cards and, and maybe what I'd do on the turn, too.

Agree with the others that preflop is pretty marginal, even closing the action. You're still going to be OOP all the way with a hand that doesn't play particularly well against two regs.

I also think raising is way better than either leading or calling; we almost always have more than enough equity to continue, but our visibility and playability on a lot of runouts are pretty poor. We don't have a lot of nut outs and when we do make a hand it's kinda hard to get value unless we're beaten.

In addition, there's also a chance that by raising we clear some of our outs.

The only question is how raising compares to just folding and it does look at least somewhat close to me - what sort of range are we giving the regs here (for betting and stacking off or calling the cb and stacking off, respectively)?

My thoughts are that it doesn't show your hand, and I'm not entirely sure what you're asking (e.g. if it's something along the lines of 'what hands should I be shoving here?' or similar) ;-)

Phil,

how do you feel about the flop c/r? I'm a bit weary of his floating, especially because other than a J or a heart, no card is really that great for us to continue on (and apparently we even get a hard time on some hearts)

Also, re: 2nd nuts comment - did you see the board paired?

On the turn, I think I'd rather check and let him hang himself or valuebet worse