blablubb
49 points
Well you haven't posted a question so I'm just gonna go ahead and share my thoughts with your play in general.
Preflop we could definitely be 3betting this hand but we don't have to do so all the time.
Flop seems fairly standard to me.
And I think the turn is just a slam dunk check ship as you played it. Reasons beeing we don't block any diamond draws and he should have a ton of Axxxdd, especially when the A on the flop is no diamond. If he happens to have AAxx so be it but there's a ton of value to get from his 2p+ and pair+draw hands and draws. I think the turn is the time to get it. Also us holding KK gives him less wraps with diamonds that actually would be doing better against our holding (and I think a lot of players will check back from time to time OTT when they don't have the nutflushdraw to go along with it).
Oct. 6, 2020 | 12:59 p.m.
Maybe it's helpful for you to look at it in a very fundamental and simplified way.
Let's say you only play 6max tables with every position filled. You're in the big blind every 6th time and every time you are faced with an open raise. If you folded every time you'd be loosing 16,66 bb/100 hands, just from being in the BB every 6th time.
That is what you have to compensate for and a lot of that compensation comes from stealing the blinds once you're OTB. So this is where your good BU winrate comes from.
Now you obviously won't be folding every hand but your question considering your good winrate OTB leads me to believe that you're just starting out at plo and maybe poker general.
So I'd suggest you tighten up quite a bit in the BB and especially in multi way pots (which should be most spots at low levels) only defend hands that play good multi way. High pairs, good ss or ds connected hands and almost any Axxx ss.
Oct. 6, 2020 | 12:42 p.m.
As for folding preflop that always depends on your opponent. But vs reasonably tight opponents the first hands that I'd fold are 6443r and TT72cc as they just flop terribly. (Also I wouldn't open 6443 unless blinds tend to overfold pre or postflop. Obviously I'm not a huge fan of any of those hands and hey the fold button is right there and against underdefending blinds folding the weakest parts of our range should be an option. But probably I'm always calling the first and AJ94ss.
As for playing all of these hands post vs a 3bet, it should come naturally that you often end up playing these hands passively IP as they don't flop very nutted hands or draws and when they do you tend to slowplay K654hh on a 554 flop against non idiotic players.
Sept. 30, 2020 | 9:31 p.m.
Off the top of my head I feel like checking back is basically giving up against any reasonably aggressive opponent as they will bet the turn at a very high frequency and basically we can't call (comfortably) but on hearts which we then block ourselves or the case 8.
I will check back this hand against very sticky parts of the population basically to give up.
Sept. 3, 2020 | 12:44 a.m.
Even if he will pot the turn again at a high frequency, you can continue on any 2, ten, king and at least all non pairing spades.
I don't think folding right away is good even in an exploitive sense.
Aug. 8, 2020 | 3:54 p.m.
Honestly I think a check raise OTF is the nicer play to go with.
As you probably don't just jam any AA combo into two players OTF you do need some combos to check raise with and this one offers all the pairs to bet with to the other two players. (Imagine how cool it would if BB bets w Kx and CO jams with a wrap or a weak pair + FD combo and you get both players all in with your holding).
As played I'm not even sure if you should bet this turn (in an exploitive sense). You said it yourself you expect him to have quite a lot of FDs and wraps in his range. Now they either have a pair against which you're still doing fine against or you have them crushed. Plus I do think he's got a few full houses in his range, as he ended up having. So as played OTF I'd actually go for a check call OTT as you only need ~26% for your call and that way he'll probably end up having more 765 type of hand in his range.
Aug. 7, 2020 | 12:55 p.m.
Preflop seems fine to me If BB isn't particularly squeeze happy or UTG is extremely tight.
OTF I'm guessing you do have to call once with TP top kicker a bd ntfd and a GS. The queen of hearts is actually one of the worst cards and he pots it again, so folding your double gutter is okay unless he's a maniac.
Aug. 7, 2020 | 12:38 p.m.
I'm guessing the 7h could actually be a nice card to barell. It leaves him calling more 64 combos that you're doing good against.
Aug. 7, 2020 | 12:29 p.m.
Dude this is the wrong forum
July 15, 2020 | 9:21 a.m.
I don't know him or what kind of hands he plays this way. But we know for certain, unless u have a crazy 3betting range, that his co minopenrange has a shitload more wraps on this flop than you.
Think about it this way, you're hands on this board do not get much stronger than this. But that's not enough of a reason to slowplay, he's not giving up often if ever, so missing out on value is not a consideration, but awkward turns are. If, for balancing or w/e reason you want to slowplay some hands, I'd choose to bet call the occasional queens (with a FD) and the few wraps in my range.
July 8, 2020 | 11:46 p.m.
Even for ~150bb you can just jam this in OTF and I would do so as a default, if he folds that's fine but I don't see that happening very frequently.
You could call and let him do it, but if he checks the turn and the river leaves you unimproved you'll be in a rather ugly spot, especially on low cards that improve his million wraps.
July 8, 2020 | 5:06 p.m.
Since u block the straight somewhat and unblock all high wrap combos in addition to lots of pair+fd combos, which tend not to fold very frequently, I'd be potting this vs unknown and obv call a shove.
July 5, 2020 | 11:27 p.m.
Once we pot this flop we'll have to call sth like 55 more bb into a pot of ~145bb. I certainly don't wanna pot this, but pot folding a pair w straightdraws and a bdfd seems like the worst of all possible options.
July 3, 2020 | 2:49 a.m.
Yeah this is a clear 2nd barbell, remember u don't block the K or Q high flushdraw. If you don't bet this your ability to fire turns with a credible range on this type of board is going way down.
River is a check unless villain is calling us very light and check raises most of his straight draws OTF.
April 18, 2017 | 11:47 a.m.
Well as I said, you don't need to 2 barell this hand all the time, that obv depends on the tendencies of our opponents. I just don't have enough info to give a definite answer. For example does BU raise these boards with his strongest hands and/or some semibluffs or does he flat them all hoping to see good turns or for BB to check raise somewhat looser. Also some villains OTB will have 3bet most of their good rundowns and thus end up having fewer wraps. Some BBs will have queezed most good high rundowns that profit OTT. All those factors are very relevant when we see the Jd turn. But in general for our whole range I believe we're making lots of decent made hands and draws on this particular turn.
OTF we're certainly lacking the low sets and thus have more semi strong made hands, eg. OPs good Qx etc that want to see a turncard and I'd rather have myself set the price by cbetting. It's not like they have a set or a strong draw every time (plus some will raise wraps on this board at a high frequency) and as long as nobody is consistently raising us on these boards I'd like to be the one doing the betting. I'm not saying that I expect them to fold super often, BUT I expect to make better decisions OTT if I bet the flop and I don't see ppl playing back at us cbetting four way, ppl tend to play fairly honest in mw pots.
I actually wanted to point out that I didn't say check calling the flop was our worst option, but the more I think about it the less I like check calling (this hand).
We're allowing BU and CO to bluff on a dry board and most of the bluffs have good equity or can barell and we'll be playing the guessing game. We're putting no pressure on air, so even if nobody bets, what turns do you want to see?
Even check raising this and GII hoping to flip and otherwise denying them equity seems a better option then check guessing.
April 17, 2017 | 11:02 a.m.
miami002 I'm not saying I'm only cbetting my strong range here. Vs competent villains most of my range will bet including semi strong hands like bottom two. The reason being, vs most opponents we'll have a clear range advantage even tho we're lacking the lower sets. But especially on a Jd turn we'll end up having lots of strong two pairs and pairs with strong draws to go with it.
That doesn't mean we have to get it in with all of our hands, in fact we should have a bet/folding range I believe, especially at lower stakes with people not playing back at us at a high frequency.
With our actual hand OTT it depends on our opponents tendencies and our own game plan, do we want to have a check raising range here? I think our options are to bet/fold and to check/fold (even if we want to have a check raising range, this is hardly the hand to do so). I don't see check calling beeing a good option for the same reason that applies to the flop.
April 17, 2017 | 10:05 a.m.
Check call is propably close to our worst option OTF, everything that hit the board has good equity against us and our visibilty is rather terrible. Especially 3way you'll almost never end up with the best hand OTR, if you even get to see one and if you do AND end up having the best hand it's gonna be really tough to extract value.
If you play this hand and see this flop it's a cbet, the board is rather dry and your UTG range should be strong enough to cbet this in a very high frequency.
I really don't know what you're trying to achieve by check call pot donking on this board, would be curious to know what your reasoning was and what other hands in your range would take this line.
April 16, 2017 | 5:35 p.m.
Okay so I'm gonna go ahead and post a couple of thoughts and try to give you a few ideas of what to think about in situation like that.
First off 31/17 is not a lag to me but nevermind. What's more important in that situation is his rfi in ep. But that hand is too marginal to get involved with anyhow as it lacks severly in nut potential (you'll flop bad 2p, bad straight draws and straights w/o redraws). Keep in mind that you should cold call significantly less hands in the CO than the BU.
So let's talk about that situation in general. First thing to consider is how tight or loose the opener is from EP. I've seen nits that aren't pos aware and open more in that spot than good lagtags. The next thing is obv your actual hand you want something that can continue on lots of flops even if the BU comes a long. That also means if the BU is a rock you could play a lot more hands as you will be the BU lots of the time.
Contrary to that if the BU and/or the blinds are squeeze happy you should tighten up and stop cold calling hands that play badly in low spr situations. (e.g. raggedy queens etc.)
These are the factors that also determine the strongest parts of your coldcalling range as I'd rather flat raggedy aces and repop it if I have reason to believe that the players left to act will allow me to do so frequently.
But even if nobody left to act is squeeze happy but a real spot is still still left to act it would change my 3betting tendencies and therefore what the strongest hands to cold call with are.
Let's say the BB never folds, even if we pop it up. It's safe to assume he's going to play terribly post, but we will end up 3way to the flop every time. Stop pushing a marginal edge w AA72ss when you'll get too little folds and will be lost in many spots even when it's checked to you. Call and get him to put in tons when he's far behind and allow yourself to overset the others. I'm not saying never reraise in that spot, but do it with hands that can GII more often mw dominating his trash draws.
So let's apply these thoughts on the situation you posted. You posted that BU isn't a nit, if he's at all aware of how position is a strong factor in plo he'll overcall 40%+ of the time. The only read you posted on SB is that he's on the looser side, so he'll come along very often. This leads to the only player you described as rather tight coming along very often since now he's getting extremely good odds.
Let's conclude that it's safe to say you'll end up at least three way to the flop close to every time and more often than not in a family pot. Look at your hand it's already in bad shape vs a presumably tight UTG range when we play HU. But that chance is extremely low and your hand suffers even more im mw pots. And that's almost the perfect scenario. If someone actually squeezes things only get worse.
Feb. 21, 2017 | 7:43 p.m.
Yes the 4h is a clear check (call) vs. most aggressive guys as busted wraps will bluff now instead of taking a free showdown.
Feb. 21, 2017 | 5:22 p.m.
Yeah once we've raised the flop it's a mandatory bet OTT at lowstakes and obv we're going for broke.
One thing I want to point out is that I think our flopplay could be different if we have a read on MPs small cbetting tendencies. At lowstakes I've seen some players that only bet this small with wrap+FD type of hands that want to GII OTF. In that case I wouldn't want to raise as we better exploit this by flatting and turning our hand into a bluff at a high spr vs his weak flushes.
Feb. 19, 2017 | 6:15 p.m.
I think I'd raise all aces in all of the given scenarios for us in the BB. I wouldn't blame you for checking some very ragged AA hands tho, if we were deeper. One of the reasons for raising is that it's not too uncommon for UTG to reraise us which is always nice.
If we were in the SB the situation depends a lot on BBs tendencies. If he's raising lots vs a limp and a complete, but doesn't squeeze often when we raise, I'd complete some of my AA hands. But not AAKQ since it plays well and dominates lots of holdings.
Feb. 19, 2017 | 6:06 p.m.
At least it has a tad more nutted outs. Not saying you should bet it tho.. Having a probably weak passive player IP should make us want to bet quite a bit less frequently.
Feb. 18, 2017 | 6:04 p.m.
Preflop it's definitely a call. But I'd prefer a check call OTF and possibly OTT. You're doing reasonably well against anything but topset and want to keep the weakest parts of his range in play, but the weakest parts of his range won't continue against a raise. By calling you also allow him to fire away with blockers that have little equity against you.
If you feel comfortable playing the river oop w/o initiative I'd keep on calling OTT and decide OTR. But check shoving with mostly good equity and getting one more street from his bluffs that bet/fold can't be too bad either.
Feb. 17, 2017 | 8:49 p.m.
Yeah if you bet this kind of weak made hand without at least a diamond to go with it, I'm gonna start raising every pair with something to go with it and put you in a world of hurt. Furthermore the fish will check often enough, allowing you to see a turn often and continue on good ones.
Also if you bet this hand you actually end up almost never having a straight when you do check and a low offsuit card shows OTT.
Feb. 17, 2017 | 6:28 p.m.
I don't think I like donkbetting this river (big) w/o a clear idea on what to do when we get raised. The reason being that it takes a very specific type of villain that makes us want to bet big into him instead of just letting him bet big with most of his range. We never end up with the nuts here, we either have a straight that wants to see a showdown or the Ahigh flush.
Feb. 16, 2017 | 10 p.m.
I'd absolutely want to overlimp some hands if there are guys in the blinds that reraise us somewhat frequently. If we don't overlimp some hands in that situation we either end up playing too marginal hands in bloated pots or end up folding too many hands when we could see a mw flop in position for a very cheap price.
Feb. 16, 2017 | 9:03 p.m.
I'm not trying to argue too much against a call as ppl tend to be playing fear from optimum at these stakes. Which leads to me trying to gather information on their ranges in close spots to a point where I see myself calling in these spots more often then not.
But your point of villain not calling w gs here isn't true. A reasonable SB calling range has almost no naked gutters here but tons of pair+draw type of hands that play passively and end up binking the river, so he ends up having a lot of straights.
If he's a fish then he will call w all kinds of draws and still end up having lots of straights.
Dec. 20, 2016 | 10:24 a.m.
Can't be too bad to raise gii here w trips top kicker and 3 live sidecards. But for your overall game plan a call works better to protect all your weaker holdings that might want to call once and decide OTT also you want him to prevent from folding his bluffs. I'm pretty sure his bet/fold had very little equity against you bit might have fired OTT again vs a simple flat.
Dec. 14, 2016 | 12:51 p.m.
I don't like your reasoning here. Sure we can argue about his line and complain how stupid it is. What matters more is of how bad your raise OTF is. What do you expect to achieve? Hoping he has air and bet/folds? The only hands that you're ahead against are flushdraws and pair plus straight draws but you blocksome of those. Vs anything else you're miles behind and often enough almost dead.
You're arguing he should check raise to get the most value. Well congrats since you're raising this OTF to get it in with an OP and a sucker gutter you're exploiting yourself and his bad line is suddenly pretty good.
Hey interesting line of thought, definitely!
The question is how relevant is it that villain could potentially bet the river with impunity. He needs to pick up in that first. As I don't play plo200 I have no idea how to answer that question. At plo10 I definitely don't care about that aspect right now, as really most villains will bet call/get it in with A876dd and the likes.
Oct. 8, 2020 | 12:10 p.m.