amarillotg

King hi rundowns don't play as well in 4-bet pots because a lot of times you'll be up against AAxx or an Ace hi broadway rundown that has you dominated.

If you run hot & cold equities of AAxx vs K hi, Q hi or J hi rundowns you'll see that the farther your wrap is removed from the ace the more live you are drawing and the your equity will be higher.

i would also love to see some plo mtt video content.  maybe even get an mtt and plo together to do a joint video?

love the format, please keep them coming.

in icmizer, currently you can only analyze mtt icm situations with 60 players left.  so outside of 60 players you'll still have to stick with cEV.

pfr - pre-flop raiser

cb - continuation bet

3b - 3 bet

otb - on the button (this may not be common, I use it)

bvb - blind vs blind

my thoughts exactly.

thanks for the further follow up Nick.  When you say check/call till your spr is pretty low, how low is low?

i guess i don't really have a balanced c/c range in spots where the spr is low as i'm typically pretty nutted when i do c/c.  i guess it's something i'm not very comfortable with (c/c w/ low spr) as plays out in this pot.

in this pot if i c/c flop i'll have 27k left (9bb) on the turn in a pot of 31.5k.  imo this felt like a weak play to c/c leaving myself so little behind although i now see your point that it's pretty unlikely villain will bluff ship any turn.

i think i play it the same.  i think the last thing you want to do is 3b play for stacks or 3b fold pre so i like calling and the luring of bb into sqz is a nice bonus.

flop is pretty std i think, on the turn i guess he has a pretty polarized range based on previous hands but it seems unlikely he's bluffing here, he can have every combo of sets, 2p or over pair that is trying to get max value from a hand like your's (pair + gut shot) which a lot of times will call one more and fold the river unimproved.

There's also no evidence that he's abusing the massive icm advantage he has as he's been chilling the last few orbits.

thanks for the responses, more info on the hand:

i check, villain snap cbets 9k/13.5k.  i shoved.

my reasoning in hand was this: i don't think he's making a large cb here with sets/strong top pairs... i think a lot of times this is a "i want to take this down right now" type of bet from middle pairs that are now 2nd pair to the board or stronger hands like AK that missed.

the problem i have with the shove is that if i get called i'm lucky to be drawing to 5 outs and i'm never getting it in ahead.  how often he folds to the shove i'm not sure since im readless.

at the time though i couldn't see calling as an option, i'd be sticking in 1/4 of my stack hoping he doesn't bomb the turn in which i have to fold and other than an Ace or 6 i'm pretty much c/f.  am i going to c/c it off if a heart turns?

i ran a bunch of math on the situation assuming a 19% utg opening range and a 11% cbet range of that size on that flop in which i believe i had 7%ish calling the shove.  i factored in top pairs, 1/2 the combos of over pairs and under pairs between Q and 6 and a shove came out with a profit but i'm still not convinced hence my posting it here.

the last option i thought of when analyzing after the session was donking the flop.  i think it will pretty much define the villains hand on the flop and allow me to make decisions on the turn.  if i donk out it looks pretty committing and i doubt i get bluff raised off the best hand.

food for thought

tg

i certainly don't think there's anything wrong with open folding, your hand isn't that great.  i don't like open jamming as i think you're risking too much in a field where you probably have a good sized edge.

i think i like open fold followed by limp/decide.  i think limping can be good in spots like this but i'd like to have some sort of read first.

i'd get a copy of the kill everyone with Elky editions and go through that it, it will help with some of the stack size situations you'll get into with mtt's that you're probably not used to playing in cash games.

you'd probably also find a push/fold chart like this helpful:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiRCAFDKL6fIdHE0QWt5elZMUkU4YzVrSlBVZk5EMFE&hl=en_US#gid=3

it's def not the gospel but it may help you get an idea in certain situations.

i'd also get a sub to icmizer or purchase sngwiz and use that to run calculations on push/fold, 3b shove and icm spots.

lastly watch Nick's videos. :)

tg

in game i might fold the turn here and just wait for better spots but if this is the 4th time out of 5 opportunities he's donking he has to be wide and not even necessarily paired here.  i think a lot of times guys like this love to see flops but get frustrated when they miss and go into auto donk mode because they've heard mike sexton say its the only way they can win the pot.

the other thing here is that you're getting a great price on a call on the turn and a lot of loose passive players like this aren't capable of value betting thinly on the rvr, especially oop, i'd expect you're getting a free sd here even against a lot of his Tx range.

tg

i put in payouts 40%, 23%, 16%, 12%, 9% assuming this is the final 6 of the tournament paying the top 5.

running it in sngwiz, i ran a couple scenarios.  couple things i left static, bb will call our shove 5.1% of the time, (99+, AQo+) if we fold the bb will ship on the btn 10.8% of the time (44+, A8s+, ATo+) and the btn will call this 5.7% of the time (99+, AQo+, AJs+)

if btn is raising 20% and calling with 16% AKs is losing $, we'd need JJ+ to get it in here.

if btn is opening 31% and only calling 10% we can safely push TT+, AQs+, AKo.

if btn is opening 10% and calling 5% we would need QQ+.

interesting, as Nick said the linchpin's are really the btn read and payout structure.  at first glance i thought this was a snap get in even on the bubble.

tg

could you talk a bit about your sizing in the KQ hand?  is this a typical size sqz oop w/ 25bb for you?  i think you get rush to fold his wide range a lot but button does have fairly tight stats and when he's getting 3.5-1 i'd expect him to call quite often.  in the video you said you're comfortable playing against his range hu, i guess my question is are we giving him too good of a price?  also, maybe a large sqz deters a 4b bluff from rush?

what's the payout structure?

never really thought about it.  i felt like the turn didn't change much in the way of discouraging him from putting more $$$ in the pot with his showdown range.  i guess the question is can i really get 3 streets of value with my hand anyway?  my plan if called on the turn was to bet on the smallish side again but large enough that it could look like i still have bluffs in my range.

maybe chk back turn, bet larger on the rvr is a line that would induce more calls from weaker holdings?  Although thinking about it now, there could be a lot of action killer cards on the river that may prevent me from getting value from hands like 66. (flush, broadways...)

i agree, tbh, i don't worry at all about being exploited in the long run in the small stakes massive field mtt's.  this opponent however seemed more than capable of picking up on stuff like that so it's good to note for the future.

i own sngwiz, wondering if icmizer is better?  worth a purchase in addition to wiz?

its' interesting to see how short you are willing to get before taking a probably -EV play to try to maintain some sort of stack with FE. (talking about the hot $44 turbo)

This may be a flaw in my thinking but when i get down to < 10bb's im desperately looking for spots to jam to avoid getting down into the 5bb territory where imo it's terribly hard to come back from.

i guess the 1 hand in particular i'm talking about is the A3o in the bb @ 35:50 with 6bb left after posting vs a utg 12bb jam.  i'd assume he's jamming wide enough that i'd be willing to call it off here and try to get back to a reasonable stack.  i ran it in sngwiz (chip equity not icm) and we'd be losing an ante on the call vs a 22.5% shoving range.  maybe he's shoving tighter than i think or maybe it's just an old school way of thinking but i'd love to hear your thoughts on folding down vs gambling it up to maintain a stack.

also, realize that many players will prob have diff view points on this and that there's not necessarily a right or wrong way.

thanks, tg

just wanted to chime in and say that your enthusiasm and passion for the game & teaching the game is very refreshing.  i've been a member of many training sites over the years and rarely have i seen follow posts in a video thread like this.  well done.