SwissOdds

Does 7% 3b really qualify for being aggressive? Seems weird to me.
Furthermore, CO 3bet sizing looks more like he s wanting a call. Does that translate to value?

Very rare to get an even chop on winnings if the backer takes 100% risks by paying 100% of the bi.

JMMaga

Thanks for your input. I think you are right, it is surely an ICM fold. But its funny because on 2+2, people were saying that it isnt actually a Crystal clear fold. Seems like 1010 is slightly -EV and JJ would be right on the border.

Ganjabriel,
Btn is left with 0.1 ante AFTER the sb, bb and antes are taken so he wont be forced to reveal his hand during that 1010 vs CL shove action but he ll be forced all in the very next hand, which imo adds to the fact that i should not have called CL shove.
Does Nash equi consider ICM in that spot? Seems weird to me because it doesnt fit the numbers people on 2+2 were talking about.

But anyway thanks a lot for your thoughts and input.

Reading some RIO MTT threads could be a good idea as there are many MTT spots talked abt in that section. Get back to the basics with humility and dont try to be cute. If you feel your NLHE Mtt is pretty rusty, just go for the ABC strat. Playing really solid and GTO. Cant go wrong.
GLGL and ship it!

May i ask you what is the name of the tool you used to end up with those precise numbers?
As you said yourself, the vast majority of the field in a 20 euros turbo on a french site wont play nash equi. lol
Thanks for your insight tho

Thanks for your views, cheers

As felipe said, your play seems fine but what bother me is his big sizing, not sure if it screams value or not. He could have an 8x hand but facing a utg cbet on that flop, not sure how often he would almost 4x your cbet and then continue big on the turn with a total value hand...
Not sure abt his range here.

Thoughts?

First of all, oop you should raise bigger than that. 12k min seems the way to go here.
Then I think we could go either way in such a spot. There is merit in checking. You control the pot size and you hide the value of your hand letting your opponent a chance to value bet a weaker holding and a chance to (semi-)bluff. By checking you dont let your self in a weird situation where you get raised on that T turn. J10s Q10s A10s are part of his preflop calling range ip as well as 66's but most of the time, you are still ahead on that T turn.
Betting has some merit too because you make the Flush and straight draws pay for the river. He might even have floated flop with a gs like AJ or AQ.
If he's very sticky and wont fold anything, you might want to check for the reason mentionned above, if you want to protect your hand from the draws on such a wet board just bet at least half pot.
Personnaly, i would check turn and reconsider river depending on his action.

With only 25bb stack, it s a case of, if he has it he has it.
Sitting on 25biggs QQ, is way too strong not to 3bet with the intention to snapp a 4b shove pre.

Unlucky set up, thats abt it

Even with ICM consideration, i think it is still a call. http://www.icmpoker.com/icmcalculator/
Have a look
Not quite on the direct bubble because you are 8 players left with 5 only getting paid and with a strong chance to double up to 2nd place in chips.

On the direct bubble, with a lot of shorties, one could argue againts a fist pumped call but in your case, I still think it is a call.

Besides sets and straights, those are the hands we could be facing and willing to get it in against: 77, 109s, 98s, A8, etc... But sitting on +20bbs eff. with a flush draw OTF and our hand being that vulnerable, we rather try to get all the chips in OTF because a lot of turns will kill our action. So we have to charge the maximum amount to anyone willing to continue, in that regard, imho, i think that betting small in that precise case is an error.

https://www.upswingpoker.com/final-table-bubble-tournament-mtt-strategy/

Even if this comes from a competitor site, it is a good basic knowledge.

And, to give a try to answering your prerogative:

If V is opening a standard amount on the button regarding the precise situation, we could easily assume that he will be opening at least 50% of hands which translate to: 22+, A2s+,K2s+;Q2s+,J2s+,105s+,96s+,86s+,75s+,A2o+,K5o+,Q7o+,J8o+,108o+
So, in a vacuum, facing such a wide opening range (50% otb), your 3bet jam is obsly +EV as long as V can only call with a 15% range.

It then dépends on factors like, your ABI, table dynamics and stacks sizes, the importance of laddering one or two stops regarding your BR etc etc

Your reasoning seemed appropriate but at the same time, you could minimize the variance by simply flatting pre.
Curious to know what V had in that spot and if u survived the all in

Got u, thanx Barracuda!
Cheers

Yes, got it pretty wrong, it was indeed a 3bet and not a 4bet as long a lojack was rfi. So, to make sure, 5x'ing the 24k raise to 120k OOP on 4/8k blinds is a normal sizing to you? I thought it was actually on the bigger size. How come 5x'ing is a standard sizing?

Really appreciate your answer that is valuable to me.
Regarding your assertion: "flatting and jamming most flops is probably still quite high-variance", what do you mean precisely?
How come flatting and 3b jamming facing a very probable cbet on any low flop would be also high variance?
Furthermore, and if I got it right, it was one of those spots where the money had to go in the middle?!
So you do not think that there was a way to escape getting rekt and busto from that tourney?
I mean, folding 1010 is way too exploitable to be a play right?

If vilain knows that u are most of the time flatting small pp on the bb and almost never 3b'ing, doesnt that allow him to cbet a higher percentages?

HoldMyDrinkBtch
1Time4TheKid
DudesAdegen
HowDoUevenCall
YoMamaSaysHi

Yo @Raphael, i am really keen on knowing your views. Regarding the first hand which led me to the same conclusion as yours, was my reasoning correct or did i miss something?

@Raphael:

Does that mean that we should bet a "smaller amount" when we have more value bets than bluffs or does that mean that we should bet "at a smaller frequency" when we have more value bets than bluffs? Arent we losing some EV by following that reasoning?

Cheers

hello,

I ll try to give my thoughts strictly on the first hand.
Even if there s no immediate payjump, in that precise spot, I think that you should still consider ICM as big part of your decision.
Because vilain and yourself are respectively 43bb and 35bb deep facing two other players with less than 15bb, and being on the FT bubble, busting right now would be a total disaster.
In that regard, putting yourself in a spot where you are basically praying for not getting snapped by 99+ (or AK against which you d be flipping) is not ideal and easily avoidable.

Sure, 88 crushes the CL btn open ranges (in a vacuum) and sure, regardless of btn tendencies, 3b shoving could be a +EV play here but lets take a deeper look.

Priorities are the key right here. So what are your priorities regarding your options?

-folding 88 in bb facin btn min open -> nope
-3betting small-> why not but what will you do if vilain 4bets?
-3bet jamming 35bb -> thats a very big 3bet jam: you ll get looked up by hands that have you crushed (99+) or that have you flipping (AQss, AKo...) in a spot where there s no need and no place for that kind of variance.
-flatting -> yeah, sure, that play is exploitable on the long run but at those stakes, in that precise spot, you dont really need to be so balanced that flatting would become a no-no.

Coming back to the "priorities" regarding that precise spot, your priority is being able to capitalise on the fact that there's 2 <15bb stacks when you are playing 35bb.
Your priority is not to play high variance against the CL, risking to bust on the FT bubble. On the contrary, your priority is to reduce that variance to the max.

IMO and in conculsion, flatting and reconsidering postflop is the play here.

Thought?

Full ring, being the shortest stack, ICM isnt very important here because of the small payjumps between 9th, 8th and 7th, you are beating the btn shoving range and most certainly ahead of sb rejamming, therefore and eventhough there are situations where this AKss could be a fold, in that precise spot, you can not let it go and have to go with it

Sorry, didnt get the full meaning of your assertion.
What do you mean by "the less you should be in general"?
Regards

Amen

I do like your line but regarding your strategy, I dont get why you bet that small OTR.
I understood your strategy and the fact that you dont want to push out of the hand Villain who might even fold an overpair facing too big of a value bet OTR but as long as he s certainly not 3bet jamming anything less than a boat, which would implicate an easy fold for you, imho, you could go for a bigger sizing than 25% of the pot. What about a bet between 9 and 11k. I would even consider trying to go a bit bigger. What do you think?