MentalMuscle
3 points
Would open jamming really be that horrible Tom? If so, why? I'm starting to think shoving is the new min raise (lol, seriously). Seems like it will work a lot and no one has a clue what you are doing.
Misha, when you min raised pre were you intending to 4-bet all in against anyone who played back at you? Did you think he had a foldable range (if so, what would it be?), or were willing to play a flip? (or worst case scenario run into a bigger pair). Sorry if that sounds aggressive or condescending. I don't mean it that way. Genuinely curious.
For whatever it's worth I think I would have openshoved pre. And second choice would be 2x pre and fold to the 2.25x rr.
Could calling his rr be an option, in position?
expandMisha, when you min raised pre were you intending to 4-bet all in against anyone who played back at you? Did you think he had a foldable range (if so, what would it be?), or were willing to play a flip? (or worst case scenario run into a bigger pair). Sorry if that sounds aggressive or condescending. I don't mean it that way. Genuinely curious.
For whatever it's worth I think I would have openshoved pre. And second choice would be 2x pre and fold to the 2.25x rr.
Could calling his rr be an option, in position?
Feb. 4, 2013 | 7:22 p.m.
I agree with flatbreadpizza. It's great for your self control / image / confidence if you control the pot sizes, even if it means giving up on some small amount of +EV spots (for which you can't weather the variance, and not what attracted you to the table). Not letting him swell pots prevents him from putting you in tough spots, and also frustrates him too, as it's harder for him to make you feel uncomfortable. Also it's annoying to him as a big stack / table captain for you to just chip away at him.
What about forcing him into super weird spots. For example, show you're intention is to play for stacks, overbet reraise his check raises more often. make him think 'wtf'... and do it with all hands you are willing to stack off with - which you will have to do quite quickly when he tries to reassert control. But that creates a great dynamic for you to play a few all-in pots against him within a short amount of time. I think it's a great spot for going for a double double. Make him the mark. Even call him the mark, lol.
The worst thing you can do imo is to make smallish adjustments and play multiple streets with him. He'll be in control the whole time, of the hands, the pot sizes, the dynamic between the two of you, everything... and then it's just a matter of time until he gets you. And even worse is that when that dynamic exists it opens doors for the other players to come in and squeeze, putting you in even more uncomfortable spots.
expandWhat about forcing him into super weird spots. For example, show you're intention is to play for stacks, overbet reraise his check raises more often. make him think 'wtf'... and do it with all hands you are willing to stack off with - which you will have to do quite quickly when he tries to reassert control. But that creates a great dynamic for you to play a few all-in pots against him within a short amount of time. I think it's a great spot for going for a double double. Make him the mark. Even call him the mark, lol.
The worst thing you can do imo is to make smallish adjustments and play multiple streets with him. He'll be in control the whole time, of the hands, the pot sizes, the dynamic between the two of you, everything... and then it's just a matter of time until he gets you. And even worse is that when that dynamic exists it opens doors for the other players to come in and squeeze, putting you in even more uncomfortable spots.
Feb. 4, 2013 | 7:05 p.m.
His river bet size seems very much like he wants and expects a call. I think I prefer another raise from you on flop and get in, or just shove any turn if he just flats (as a fish very well might do depending on your sizing).
The way it played out, on the turn I think the opposite of Wahoozle actually, The small bet seems to me (from experience it is sometimes a bad play that I too make) that he wants you to pounce on it and reraise. He has put you on AT, AJ, AQ, AK, no pair and praying you don't have TT, JJ. I think this read is cemented by his river bet that he wants you to call with A high or flush.
From the fishes point of view it went like this:
1) I'll play a small / medium pair tricky preflop. Or, I'll play my small suited connector for $150, maybe I can get lucky and win a big pot with this guy who thinks I'm a bluffing idiot.
2) Flop: Sweet. I'll check raise and take it down here.
3) Oh, he called my check raise, what now... ok bet small on turn he (you) might shove thinking I am weak or that I will fold - which I won't. NB: This 400 is basically never a blocker bet from a fish.
4) Damn, no turn action. Ok, time to bet big, My 33+ is good here. What's the most I can bet.
So he bets too little on turn and greedily bets too much on river - total wild / fish play.
I think his hands here are 23, 35, 45, 46, 56, 57, 33, 44, 66, 77, 88, and a very very occasional 78 and 89. And I'm leaning mostly to him having 35, 45, 77.
He's a fish, but not a total fool, so he knows that river card completed everything and that he is folding out close to nothing. He wants a call and thinks his small full house is good. And he's definitely calling a shove too.
expandThe way it played out, on the turn I think the opposite of Wahoozle actually, The small bet seems to me (from experience it is sometimes a bad play that I too make) that he wants you to pounce on it and reraise. He has put you on AT, AJ, AQ, AK, no pair and praying you don't have TT, JJ. I think this read is cemented by his river bet that he wants you to call with A high or flush.
From the fishes point of view it went like this:
1) I'll play a small / medium pair tricky preflop. Or, I'll play my small suited connector for $150, maybe I can get lucky and win a big pot with this guy who thinks I'm a bluffing idiot.
2) Flop: Sweet. I'll check raise and take it down here.
3) Oh, he called my check raise, what now... ok bet small on turn he (you) might shove thinking I am weak or that I will fold - which I won't. NB: This 400 is basically never a blocker bet from a fish.
4) Damn, no turn action. Ok, time to bet big, My 33+ is good here. What's the most I can bet.
So he bets too little on turn and greedily bets too much on river - total wild / fish play.
I think his hands here are 23, 35, 45, 46, 56, 57, 33, 44, 66, 77, 88, and a very very occasional 78 and 89. And I'm leaning mostly to him having 35, 45, 77.
He's a fish, but not a total fool, so he knows that river card completed everything and that he is folding out close to nothing. He wants a call and thinks his small full house is good. And he's definitely calling a shove too.
Feb. 4, 2013 | 6:42 p.m.
I think you can take a better line to protect yourself and leverage your image to your advantage, especially against an aggro opponent who will look for opportunities to make your life difficult.
In this spot on flop would you consider just shoving? For the reason that you feel like you have the best hand with top pair, but more so because it is only going to be hard for you to play turn and river, and easy for your opponent - especially considering he knows you as very tight from the previous three hours. Also, at least half the deck is going to put you in tough spots on turn, and the other half is just going to fold him out. Seems like it might just be a great spot to shove (making you look much stronger than you are, e.g. 99+ with a diamond, so basically QJh is right at bottom of your range there). Or if not going to shove then just play small ball, check it back, hope for cheap showdown and non-diamond, non high-card run out run out.
If I was your opponent in that spot I am definitely thinking I can make your life very difficult with that board, because you have shown a propensity to not want to get involved. Probably my plan against you would be of the following:
1) Check raise flops if you bet too small. e.g. <25k.
2) Lead turn if you check back flop, and depending on your reaction, probably shove river.
3) Check fold turn if you lead 40% pot or more. Check raise all in if you bet turn less than 40% of pot size.
4) If we somehow get to the river I'd bet more than he did - I think his bet size was bad here (and as you pointed out, it seems he didn't really think about the amount he bet).
Basically I am going to be looking for any weirdness or mistake from you, to pounce on and put you in super tough spot.
Of course knowing all that you could use it to induce him to play back at you, but personally I think that's not as good as just taking down the pot on flop.
Overall I love a flop shove - high probability you have the best hand, and things can only really get worse on turn and river (or just shut down). Not only that but his calling range for your shove, considering your image too, must be only a few hands, e.g. flopped sets, Ad+pair which is hard for him to have considering limp call preflop, except tricky AK perhaps though seems highly unlikely. I think the flop shove also makes you look dangerous, and even tighter than you have been, so makes it harder for people to challenge you in future hands too... it's great for the image you currently have (cement it in their minds then play the opposite for a while).
Thoughts on employing a flop shove in these crucial late stages tournament situations?
expandIn this spot on flop would you consider just shoving? For the reason that you feel like you have the best hand with top pair, but more so because it is only going to be hard for you to play turn and river, and easy for your opponent - especially considering he knows you as very tight from the previous three hours. Also, at least half the deck is going to put you in tough spots on turn, and the other half is just going to fold him out. Seems like it might just be a great spot to shove (making you look much stronger than you are, e.g. 99+ with a diamond, so basically QJh is right at bottom of your range there). Or if not going to shove then just play small ball, check it back, hope for cheap showdown and non-diamond, non high-card run out run out.
If I was your opponent in that spot I am definitely thinking I can make your life very difficult with that board, because you have shown a propensity to not want to get involved. Probably my plan against you would be of the following:
1) Check raise flops if you bet too small. e.g. <25k.
2) Lead turn if you check back flop, and depending on your reaction, probably shove river.
3) Check fold turn if you lead 40% pot or more. Check raise all in if you bet turn less than 40% of pot size.
4) If we somehow get to the river I'd bet more than he did - I think his bet size was bad here (and as you pointed out, it seems he didn't really think about the amount he bet).
Basically I am going to be looking for any weirdness or mistake from you, to pounce on and put you in super tough spot.
Of course knowing all that you could use it to induce him to play back at you, but personally I think that's not as good as just taking down the pot on flop.
Overall I love a flop shove - high probability you have the best hand, and things can only really get worse on turn and river (or just shut down). Not only that but his calling range for your shove, considering your image too, must be only a few hands, e.g. flopped sets, Ad+pair which is hard for him to have considering limp call preflop, except tricky AK perhaps though seems highly unlikely. I think the flop shove also makes you look dangerous, and even tighter than you have been, so makes it harder for people to challenge you in future hands too... it's great for the image you currently have (cement it in their minds then play the opposite for a while).
Thoughts on employing a flop shove in these crucial late stages tournament situations?
Feb. 4, 2013 | 6:11 p.m.
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My thoughts are that it seems better to shove and force ICM decision on others, than to raise 2x and then 4-bet all in against what seems to me like zero fold equity - just not sure anyone is 3-betting to 2.25x and not inducing your shove. Even if they are Brazilian ;)
I mean does anyone ever expect anything other than a shove from the OP when they 3-bet him like that? And because of that I think opponent is unlikely to hold something like A5s that he might fold, or even 33, 44, 55, 66, 77, 88, (which I think they would just 3-bet shove with if they are going to play it at all). Best hope is to be flipping against KQ+, AT+? (Honestly I think the 2.25x 3-bet blinds versus button on exact bubble is 99+, AQ, AK, and everything else just shoves or folds).
Or you think maybe they are spazzing sometimes with QJs, A9o, etc? Seems like it will be rare for that to happen.
Feb. 5, 2013 | 1:52 p.m.