IJustCameForTheFreeCookies

I would say pick 4) +1 :P

I think a player Zerosum has some books, he trained with collin moshman and it was pretty good from memory.

Goodluck sir!

^2nd this.

I'd be in on that haha.

Awesome effort on your last day of grinding. I'm in a bit of a downswing at the moment and also struggle in terms of volume. I love the game, I want to make it my career while I work on side ventures but it can be very mentally difficult at times.

Something that has helped me is really planning my life and financial goals over the next 12 months, 24 and 60. Then posting visual aids; eg a car, holiday around my place/grind station as reminders of what I am working towards. This has helped me a lot before.

Also the mental positive reinforcements, such as something posted on your bathroom mirror "today I am going to grind 8 hours playing my A game, crush some souls and work towards my goals"... so you see and read it everytime you go to the bathroom.

You seem really dedicated and quite skilled so I hope it works out for you.

Loving it so far mate... something that would be great for me to drill home :D.

Such an amazing effort Mush! Give hope to the rest of us. Good luck in your upward journey.

What about the adjusted of him only ever doing this with KJ+?

You saying he definitely only has a full book here plus is based on hand history/player history throughout the night that wasn't shared in the hand discussion?

Fair enough if this villain has a boat such a high percentage but against these villains -overly passive live players - you should always just be bet/fold bet/fold bet/fold. The questions at the bottom of the hand then become very easy:

Never check turn because he is passive and currently your range is greater than his. His range will only beat you when he raises as these players generally raise QQ+ preflop. The calling range on the turn is pretty inelastic from betting 40-55 and I'd probably prefer $55 for slightly more value. Then the river i bet 1/3rd pot to try to keep in his range of underpairs and obviously fold to a raise (bet/fold) and checking is too passive there as the description of a understanding player will have very few 2s in his hand especially with your A blocker - 4 combos of A2 while 24 combos of under pairs alone.

Also what is villains fold to cbet like?

Also there is no point "disguising" your hand here as it is effectively the same as AA just slightly more vulnerable and I prefer the line of 3 streets of value on the board and the turn is where you get the most value from his range. If you genuinely don't think you can ever get 3  streets from certain passive players then x/f river.

What was the club on the flop, did you have Q of clubs?

No reads I fold here as he can have a flush enough. Player history can add to this. But this is a situation where you really need player tendencies/information to make the call. Plenty of straights missed, 57/97. 910 on the flop but makes the turn straight I think would raise the turn or not bet so much on the river. Generally live peoples ranges tend to be very polarised on river bets - it is hard for him to have a merged range with no player history vs you and betting that much on that board. Eg the river is a scare card so why would he bet so big with a straight or a set? it is pushing you to fold the top your range that he gets value from.

It is also a little odd for villain to have a flush here but that depends which card was a club on the flop. What is he xc flop that picks up a FD on the turn? some straight draws that turn a flushdraw do make sense here, but potential pairs - specifically if the Q isn't a club and you'd don't have it that have top pair on the flop, p+fd on turn and river flush.

Had the villain been calling a lot from the blinds? have you seen any of villains postflop play? what style were they playing - eg a passive station, passive fit or folder, regular or any aggression?

Donk, it is fair enough to think he isn't raising here with 66-tt in an online game frame of mind - in a serious question have you played much live? I have found players can raise those pairs in situations like this and the most common frame of mind is you have over cards. I had pretty much this exact situation the other night and I am friends with the player who raised me, so later I asked why they raised me there, he responded with "I didn't believe you had a big pair and I wanted to take the pot down there, I'm always hoping you fold". They aren't raising for value, and it is isn't a bluff. Often for "information" or a capping bet in the sense it stops you from betting rivers. Also folding vs a big river bet can be pretty bad on this board live IMO. It really comes down to player tendencies and profiling. In live poker I get raised and XR so, so, so often with bare top pairs average kickers.

I think live tells play a big part in these situations, as does player history, table dynamics and perceived image. It is very hard to give optimal lines on here as to get the full idea of the hand you really had to be there.

The reason I think folding river is bad is if his range is hypothetically 66-tt, 55, 22, jj, QJ+. We can agree that IF he did raise his 66-tt here he wont better river. So that leaves use with 55, 22, JJ QJ+. He could also have picked up plenty of J+fd

Let's look at the combinations of hands:
55 - 2
22 - 1
JJ - 1
QJ - 8
KJ - 8
AJ - 4

Assuming he never bluffs with air.

24 hands he can have only 4 beat you, 16 you beat and 4 you chop. The only 2 river cards I XF on are a Q or a K and clubs. Everything else is a XC unless I have specific information on the villain that he only raises turns strong, only value bets river strong OR any form of live tell for strength/weakness.

Let's look at the EV of this, assuming we call turn, the river pot is $291. Assuming the river is not a K/Q and he doesn't bet big on an A river. With all those combinations the villain only has 29% equity vs your hand. The ev of a HP ($150) river bet by him is +EV264. Hence this can never be a fold. Let's say he pots it and we remove the combinations of QJ, so he only ever has KJ+. He has 42% equity, it is +EV215 to call. These are massively +EV calls.

Also the fact you are getting like 3:1 here on the river makes it a call more often. If he give him all reasonable hearts in his range alone you are 40%, let alone the bluffs/merged bets.

I think the way your hand was played you were able to disguise its strength pretty well. Had you been opening much?  would you say you have a tightish range/image?

You say he is in internet kid; have you seen make any 'moves'? eg bluffing with nut/2nd nut blockers? barrelling/semibluffing?

I think this is very player specific based on their image and perceived image of you. When you cbet flop you can have good fd/combo draw - I believe it is bad to bet that board into 3 people with a bare FD most of the time as it is so connected and you don't want to get blown off your equity. Overpairs/sets... and depending on your opening range, could you have made straights here or 2 pair? do you raise your SC?

We have to think from the view of V1 - why is betting that river, what did he xr turn?

Turn: why is he checkraising? you lead flop, but then shut down. So you are more towards nutflush, 2pair/sets/overpair maybe some good top pairs in your range... so with the action dead why is V1 checking behind you? there is a good chance it could get checked to the river... then V2  bets small and weak and you just flat. For a thinking player this is a great XR spot as your range now becomes weakish and V2 isn't just facing V1 but also you so he can only continue with the top of his range which most likely isn't betting $35 there. With this logic since it is such a good squeeze spot does the villain do this with nuts? does he make it so big? wouldn't it be better to make it 95ish to price both of you, get 2 calls and still get great value on the river?

Once again this is where perceived image is important but also your read that he is an "internet player" is important too. As you can't have many combinations of flushes on this board. AKhh, AQhh, KQhh, QJhh, A8hh which means it is a good spot for him to bluff you off your overpair with a single heart, A-10 with H or your straight/set. Now this also goes for him, he can't have many flushes - what is his image of you? it is bad for him to call your raises with Axs if you have a solid image as his hand will be dominated too often and playing basically just for the flush factor... these are good opening hands or 3betting hands, but not good flatting vs competent players. Since you have the Q of hearts this blocks all combinations but the Akhh which surely 3bets you pre.

A lot of this is basing off your opinion of these players which makes it hard. Also live tells would play a big part in this.

In a vacuum I call as if I were in his shoes I'd read it as a good spot to bluff - also the face he can't have many good flushes in his range. A8/5-2hh, which I think A8hh raises flop as the board isn't  good for your range. A5-2hh maybe but it is bad of him to be playing these without a spot in the hand or unless he makes moves - but I think he plays turn differently as he should be for value with a card to come, he might be against smaller flushes and a river heart or paired board kills his action. Can also build the pot with the nuts. I don't think he can ever have a K high flush here. He could have a lower flush here sometimes too, 58hh, 54hh, 43hh, 32hh - I am more inclined to play these vs competent players than Ax when deep ip as they have more disguised equity and I would play flop/turn/river the same as they are vulnerable on the turn as there can be higher flushes and hearts can come river. So I check to pot control and see action (make sure I am not value owning myself by betting) but after seeing weak action raising turn for value, after just a call, jamming river for value as I'd rarely put you on a flush given your line. Also with this reasoning I also raise turns and jam rivers with straights for a merged range vs you to make your life hell often enough haha.

tl;dr: call river.

1)Turn check: to decide whether I like this, depends on how you proceed in different scenarios. Turn checks through, H river - turn checks through 10 river - V1x, V2 bets, you call, V1 folds - same rivers.  V1 bets, V2 calls, same rivers. I think often you are putting yourself in a difficult situation by checking and making it very hard to get value from a strong hand. I like the passive route if you know one of the villains is very aggressive and willing to steal on the turn and river otherwise you are playing to exploitably and missing value too often.

2) I briefly covered villains range above, but to get to his turn range we need to know his preflop and flop continuation range. This is why is becomes player dependent. What information do we have? He didn't 3bet pre but he flatted, he called the heart/straight flop. Since you opened UTG and he called from MP with players behind - assuming he pegs you on competent I imagine he will have a tighter range here (if he is good, depending table dynamics) - Strong As/Pairs/SC. I think alot of his KQ/KJ etc should be folding to a UTG open especially since he has plenty of players behind - he risks reverse implied odds and hard to extract value postflop and also terrible position and relative position. I think his range is weighted towards straights, bluffs and low flushes.

Firstly don't like the play preflop. You only have 40bb - this is not an "opening range stack". It should purely be focused towards value hands as you have very limited post flop play. It is terrible to stray from this.

I don't mind the flop check but I bet 100% here.. why? he limp called. He can have pairs in his range but also Kx Qx that doesn't believe you have an ace since there is two on the board... plus they can hit a Q or a K and call often. Also plenty of flushdraws in their range and you want to build a pot.  I bet about 18$ to set up a turn jam with your stack - the point of playing short is to get your money in. The reason I jam turn is it is when you get your value... fish want to call when cards are still to come as they can make better hands. Slow playing your hand this much is missing out on so much profit.

You have also labelled him a fish/donkey but said you have only seen him play two hands? how is this a correct assignment of a player? this is just an assumption and bad in poker to think this way.

On the river you have played your hand so strangely he could hero call with any pair... which he would most likely do anyway but what is calling the turn then deciding to XR bluff that river? People rarely, rarely XR, even R bluff rivers live... ever. Unless I have previous hand history that someone is a spewtard it is always a fold.

Depends what he perceives your 3betting range to be; if you are pretty polarised weighted to AA/KK the flop is a good semibluff opportunity for him. It has hard for you to Have TT/T7 here so he would be confident he draw is live often enough unless you have the aaxxss or kkxxss. Sticking to this range assignment it would be very hard for you to continue on that flop when he raises with anything but a 7+ so I imagine he expects you to fold a lot. He also raised enough to maximise fold equity and price himself in. Once you ship he has to call. Vs your range there he is about 33%. Vs your exact holdings he was 40%.

The spot sucks for you, can't say whether I agree with his play but it def isn't bad/terrible depending on the history of the game so far.

Alternatively he may have just been a fish and thought "i have teh FD ALL INNN"

Always bet that flop, since you mentioned he is looser and aggressive there aren't too many KK in his range.

If he his an aggro opponent like mentioned I think his range is something towards A8os+, all Axs, pairs +. J9s+.

Have you seen him raise fold much before? as this could change his range significantly here.

He will only hit that K 22% of the time with that range. He will have underpairs a decent chunk and plently of air. The problem with your line is you just gave the aggressive opponent initiative which is very dangerous as XR that flop with QQ would be spew so you now have to call as XF is just terrible unless you have a solid read. Which leaves you with flatting... there are no good turn cards for your hand bar a queen and since he is aggro he will most likely have an accidentally merged range: he will be betting his kings+ because he has a king. He will be betting his air because he is trying to win. He will be betting his underpairs because he will put you on A high since you checked flop and it is the only thing he knows how to do - or if competent player will read you for tt-qq. Bet flop with 88 then realise your hand as it is face up and barrel, especially if you have a tight image.

I bet/fold flop. If called I continue betting turn. River I am xfing but may xc depending on player tendencies or if any tells.

Ah I typed a long response but accidentally hit the back button on my mouse and it wiped it...

CBF retyping it but basically I think you played the hand perfectly. Don't be dissuaded that it wasn't the correct line due to a single event. Eg if he has KK there don't get into the mind frame of "ah I should have check/assessed river". Or in this case, oh he folded maybe I should bet less. You are playing against a range. A % of this range folds, % calls you win, % calls you lose. It is about the correct play vs the entire range :).

There is an equity sim I can do to see which line is the most EV against his agreed range there. CBF at the moment but might do it later if anyone is interested.

^Solid advice.

Especially since he has been having a bad night. When you jam rivers people tend to level themselves into thinking "if they wanted a call they wouldn't jam" so you MAY widen his range to hero AQ. Value from KQ/QJ as mentioned, plus some Kxcc that may be in his range since people love to play suited K and A live in position.

Yeah I'd play JJ/88/AA/KK the same as him there. We're trying to get value from AJ/KJ.. he might be bad and have AK.

As played I don't mind a river flat, but when raising I prefer making it about 320$ as we have a pretty narrow range we're getting value from. He has a range of steals in there that are betting to win as they have no real SDV on that board runout, and hands that crush us.

When we raise that river what is the villain going to think? QT is 100% in our range there at a live game, and people rarely raise rivers light in live games. At my local casino I 100% flat the river unless I have information on the villain, Eg sitting under a full BI, seems to have been drinking, chatting with friends - anything that makes me think he is a casual player.

I first jumped on PLO200zoom. Ran up about 5k over 5 sessions.

7 months later, many hours of grinding and studying that was the last time I showed a profit :P.

I don't know why this thread is still going; somewhat childish. Trolls be trolling and the kids be feeding the trolls.

I respect everyone has their opinions and some people feign an opinion or present it in a negative manner to try to receive a certain premeditated response which may, or may not be the case here.

Either way everyone above has been talking in circles, trying to change the mind of someone else... which is literally impossible; only they can change it. The more you argue the more they stand firm in their place.

This thread is just perpetuating a negative and poor image of the forum and the site especially when big names are participating. There was no direct attacks initially, just possible correct or incorrect assumptions.

I personally believe the correct action would be to lock this thread for no future comments as there is nothing to gain; but not deleting it as people have voiced their opinions and shouldn't be muted.

Everyone please take a moment to reread and take an honest view of how you appear from the outside, whether you believe your posts are justified or not.

I can see your logic but personally I don't like the hand at all.

Firstly you mention it is a table of players who don't like to fold, secondly you call the flop saying you will get paid if you hit a nine - both are lines which are going for value since they never fold. You then raise turn for a bluff line on a card that doesn't rep much and I don't think you ever check flop with a set or K - he might not be a thinking player and notice this. I call you 100% with a king here always.

On the turn the pot is $108, he bets $25 and you make it $75 so there is $158 in the middle and he only has to call $50? even without a FD I guarantee live fish love the call here. He calls pot is now $258, you bet $90; the pot is $348 and he only has to call $90 to win... and he has top pair. I can promise as a fish he is never, ever, ever folding there. He plays poker to make top pairs, he played the king to make top pairs. The reason live poker is so profitable is people can't fold top pairs.

Basically I would only 3bet 99 preflop if I wanted to isolate a player who has raised/limped because I know exactly how they play and can either value milk them with just 99, stack them with a set or win with SDV and can bluff them off slightly better hands. EG Can read when they have QJ on JK2 board. So IMO the call is fine - you are playing to hit a set, if you don't move on to the next hand with this many people in the pot and with such little equity.

If you were to bluff and his flop bet looked weak, XR that. He bets $12 into $48, looks weak as, raise it to $55 and jam turn. Much harder and scarier for him. I believe he still calls in this scenario but it will have a higher success rate. Also as played if you want to XR turn you basically have to put him all in then and there to have any sort of fold equity; once again I believe he calls this time due to the draw but in the future it will be much more likely to fold out bare kings.

Just realised the btn must have had more than $150 at the start of the hand, so my advice for a turn XR jam opposed to a small raise would change to XR to $110 and giveup on all rivers bar a 9. This way it only needs to work less than half the time to be instantly profitable. Most of all though, I recommend XF this flop. Feel free to peel if you are deeper but with these stacks you are just burning money.

Good news is he did the same think vs me last night on 8h9cQc... I have JThh... he has *drum roll* 5h6s.. drawing dead to a chop. :D always better spots haha.

Icwatudidthere.

^Finally, a real picture of GT.

I haven't been able to find any recent updates. Do have any inside information on the new release date?

I'm keen to get a copy asap.

25bb/100? sweet jesus.

Are you sure you didn't mean 25bb/1000 haha.

Pretty sure people these days are pretty happy with 2-5bb/100 in the NL200+ world.

Thank you for your posts, some solid advice and information in there.

What you said more or less align with what I thought after the hand.

"Because if we look at the situation: we're very often flipping for a lot
of money against a guy that makes a LOT of mistakes. It might be
strategically interesting to find a better spot, where he effectively
spews (here it doesn't look as if he's spewing, it's just that we have a
nutted hand)."

This speaks to me. Even if it is guaranteed to be a 50/50 and we are getting an ok overlay with the money in the pot there are other negative aspects. The variance side of the times we lose and it negatively affects our near future game. I like to think of myself as having my tilt levels pretty under control but everyone's game is effected to some level, even if minute after being stacked live by the donk at the table. This can also give you a losing image at the table and affect how future situations unfold.

"This is not a spot where we make a lot of money. I think it's good to
think about the strategic implications of us stacking off here vs
folding in a live setting against a bad player."

Yup. I did stack off by the way and it was great for my image vs some of the regs on the table as they all thought it was terrible (ldo results orientated) so I'm more likely to get action off them in the future.

I tanked for about 25-30 seconds on the flop and called with the intent to call all turn jams as I find this doesn't change anything the SPR is crazy at that point and I don't see him shutting up shop with any of the hands I thought I beat on the flop. I personally preferred the line of calling flop, calling turn opposed to jamming flop as I may be able to fold out the hands I beat there. Possibly not but since I chose to continue I wanted to gain the most from them. Also if the turn came heart, J, T, he may check and allow me to get to the river for a cheaper/lower variance showdown.

Funnily enough he had a hand I never even thought about him have there... as I have been seeing him 3bet TT+ from any positionn. He had KK to have me well and truly F'd. Have AA there onetime eh ;).

I recently moved over PLO.

I paid good money for certain training packages, sites, video series.

By far the best thing for my game has been this site, trolling the PLO discussions/posts religiously and the quality videos from the crew here.