GunnJD

This was the first thing I thought when I saw the hand...was surprised people were saying to size up.

I like your thinking here. Flatting the small sizing does cap CO and SB's range, but I'm not sure that it tells us too much about UTG.

In my experience many fun players will size down bets in multi way pots, even with the top of their range. I could be wrong about that though :).

So that Kc. Not only does it reduce the number of draws in villain's range, but it reduces the number of scare cards for us on the turn.

So for that reason I think flatting here is OK. If you knew that UTG uses this sizing with a particular part of his range, then raising here could be fun.

Bump :)

@arizona that is very interesting!

I'm still getting the hang of things with Zone, but there are a couple of aspects that I find conflicting.

PP seems to overfold on early streets, but equally unbluffable on later streets.

This sort of makes sense if they're folding so much on flops that their turn range is very strong.

So basically, when they call we can shut down with our air and keep v-betting our nuts?

At times the pool seems unbluffable, but I guess that makes sense if I'm bluffing into stronger ranges.

I think it is important to fist pump before clicking call on turn.

Agree with the thoughts about preflop. I think flatting here a small % of the time is ok though.

Personally I like cbetting here, assuming hero has worse Axhh in range, which I imagine he does. I don't think this is a board AK checks oop very often.

I wasn't too sensitive to river sizing at first, but perhaps scream makes a good point there.

I think the preflop action is pretty important when considering river. It is a good spot for BB to squeeze, UTG folded, and most importantly the person with the weakest perceived range called (hero).

From villain's perspective, we bet flop, checked turn, and could have a lot in our range that folds to a bet on river. If I was villain I'd be stabbing the heck out of that scary river.

Another issue I have is that this is the best Ax in our range by river. Maybe that shouldn't really matter, I'm not sure. Double barrel AT and AJ I assume, AK probably not in our range.

Anyway, I think a case could be made for calling here.

Yeah, gross spot. I think probably a good fold.

He needs to be turning hands with showdown value into bluffs on river, which I doubt many 10NL players are doing.

So KcQ seems like his only real bluffing candidate on river, maybe KcJ. Perhaps KcK. Those combos aren't quite enough to make this a call, however.

If he was a fun player I'd jam for value on river and expect to be called by worse.

Yeah this seems like a trivial call to me. CO still has at least 50bbs behind. This is generally a hand that will either flop big or go home, so it shouldn't be too tough post flop.

Yeah +1 to Paul Atwal! And I do enjoy Steve Paul's stuff too.

I think Brokenstar's advice is pretty solid, and much of this discussion illustrates the benefits of a high frequency cbetting strategy. Especially if your player pool over folds OOP.

At the end of the day there are reasons to bet Hands A-C, and reasons not to bet hands A-C. Those are moments where you just have to hand read, and study specific board textures away from the table.

There could be instances where hands like Hand A actually have good equity against villains calling range, depending on board texture, for example.

I really enjoy Cameron Couch's stuff. Rapid fire brilliance on all streets ;).

I could be wrong, but I don't think this is actually a board IP should be raising often.

Some type of strategy involving raising top two, maybe KQ with a backdoor flush draw, 98cc, but flatting most of your range. Some of this depends on how often you're flatting AK, I believe. If you have AK here more often, I think a wider raising strategy may become more tenable?

As always, so much depends on how you build everyone's ranges and bet sizing on the flop. Stack sizes too :).

In before smarter people than I respond ;)...

I think folding here probably gives most villains too much credit and presumes that our opponents always play perfectly. Equity wise, he only needs 3 extra combos in addition to AKs, KK, AA for this to be a call. Give him a couple combos of AKo, or a combo of QQ, or KQo, or 98s because he's feeling fishy that day. I mean...you never know ;).

I think its important to consider his squeezing range from SB, and that this turn will widen up his barreling range. That being said, I don't know what to say about the small turn sizing.

I'd raise up that turn, ranges pretty polarized there.

On riv, in 25NL I just don't think many players are actually bluffing there enough to make calling correct. Have trouble really finding bluff combos, maybe QhQx but don't think he's using that sort of thing this way.

Intentionally leave out your hand? :)

In terms of range stuff, I looked at a very similar spot in GTORB, and was surprised that with a 2/3 cbet hero cbets at almost 75%.

I think that despite this being a J high board the dry nature of the flop favors the uncapped range? There are so many suited broadway cards in our range that provide good turn barreling opportunities, and we have a lot of pairs that can get value or need protection.

In terms of the turn in actual hand...seems like a good spot to keep barreling broadway stuff and your Ax, just leaving some in a checking range as well?

Villain will have some Ax flop floats, but a number of pair combos that fold turn?

Yeah it is super hard to find bluff candidates for villain. Even if we force him to play AKcc and KQdd this way, his range is crushing us :(. We can start giving him more Kxdd but tough to put that in his SB iso/3bcall range.

For all these reasons I really don't think villain should have a raising range here, fwiw.

I don't know, at a certain point even a fish/whale's range becomes quite isolated.

Part of me likes flatting the 3b to keep his range wide and allow for further mistakes on later streets.

We can certainly construct a range where we're doing quite well getting it in flop, but I just think even fish think twice about sticking 160 bb in here with AA.

Larger sizings (60-75%) ok for IP?

In this spot in 25NL you can really get it in on the flop here.

His range is basically capped at KQ, and if he has a raising range on this flop he's probably the type of player that will get it in with worse than that. (this is not a board he should really have a raising range on).

As played calling turn and evaluating river :).

In small stakes it is is fine to keep betting on the turn and size so that you have a pot size bet left on the river.

In larger terms, a lot of your range will probably check this specific turn, but you can also use a polarized strategy and size up.

This is one of those spots where I think we may give villains too much credit by assuming they're playing perfectly.

The possibility of him going crazy with a 7, and just deciding to get fancy in a passively played pot, would make me want to call this sometimes.

From his perspective you have a lot of junk in your BB range. Flop checked around and now you've stabbed a blank turn. Obv you're not double barreling all your range, but you'll certainly have bluffs there and prob some Jx you're folding.

The 2nd barrel can certainly fold out flop floats like Qx, mid pocket pairs, and maybe even Kx.

Yeah gotta call it off here :), you only need around 30% equity and you're probably doing much better than that against his range.

So I think the most likely combo of 5x in villain's range is 65s, and you're blocking that.

All he needs is a couple combos of an overpair or flush draw for this to be a call.

KJo, ATo, A8s-A6s, 98s, 76s, 65s, 44-22 I open 50% of the time UTG

So you flop a flush draw? I don't think there is anything wrong with double barreling, but wouldn't fire a 3rd barrel on a blank against a fish. As david says above, no need to bluff these guys, and his range by river will have a lot of Ax that won't fold.

I agree with Saulo, I think checking most of your range on monotone boards is the way to go, and use a very polarized strategy when you do cbet. For example, cbet your nuts, and a number of combos with K clubs and bet large.

As played, the K hearts on the turn is a very interesting card. There is only one combo of suited KQ out there (KQdd), and if villain somehow has an off suit combo with the Kc, I think he'd check the turn?

So half the suited Kx combos in villain's 3b flatting range are clubs and that is noteworthy. I don't have flopzilla open, but I'm guess that suited Kx combos make up a considerable amount of CO's 3b flatting range vs BB, perhaps 2nd to Ax.

So you have 21 combos of 2 pair (if you 3b all AKo, AQo), 4 combos of straights, 9 combos of sets, and some amount of flushes? So sort of toward the bottom of your range. I guess you may not be taking all of these into the turn with you though.

I think your range is probably strong enough to fold here, but I could be wrong.

These weird bets usually result in a barrel on the next street, which is why I think this is a fold.

I don't think fun players are taking this line with pure air, and I do think they'd take this line with the nuts.

You'll (probably) have enough Qx, KK, AA yourself to call with in these spots.

I think ultimately whenever we run into weird spots like this we should lean towards folding.

My BTN vs CO 3betting range is probalby something like 7-8%. I always have A5s and sometimes have AJs.

Def agree with your assessment. Turn polarizes villain's range so much.