Nic Morgan

I call here always. You just said he was tricky and capable of big bluffs so how could you assume he has a 7 >99% of the time? Makes no sense. Could easily be bluffing or going for thin value with TT-KK or something. If you're considering folding this, then he should be bluffing 100% of the time and if he is that good then he will be at least a decent % making this an easy call imo.

I would never flat this hand pre oop. I think folding is fine and you could also squeeze depending on villians. But I thinks it's just too gappy to flat. Flop c/r is fine tho as played.

haha I'm railing him playing 12 hu 10k plo tables against 4 different reg opponents right now. I don't really understand the logic at all and I also can't understand how he is winning every day lately doing these things. There is something to be said for giving good action and not bum hunting. And I know you can get a good rush by playing a little over your head, but I can't believe anyone could be making money doing stuff like this. 

ok cool. Ya I was thinking like a recorded session and then just go through it hand by hand so its easier to get an idea of game flow etc.

$500 is way more than enough. I moved up from 10pl to 25pl at $500 lol If you're beating the game then 20bis should be fine this low.

lol I just feel like slowplaying is for when you feel pretty confident that your hand will be the best at the end of the hand so you are trying to get your opponents to make big mistakes later on in the hand by acting weak upfront. Unfortunately, AA in PLO is rarely gunna be the best had by the end so your deception is really only rewarded when you flop top set. And since people often do just flat bad aces, you can't even be that surprised when they show up with top set. If you want to slowplay AcAh8s2d then I think that's the best play. But this is one of the strongest hands in the game in PLO and you're playing a bunch of guys who are willing to put in a bunch of money. I would try to maximize it everytime, cause they don't give an f if you're balanced or not. Most of them don't even know what that is.

what I do if I'm nervous about moving up is the play the first 2 sessions or so at 50bb stacks. You won't be giving up that much EV by playing half stacked for 1k hands or something, especially if it helps you start beating the higher level sooner rather than later. Then if you lose a stack, you're still only losing the same amount you were losing at the lower level.

Another thing you can do is just sit the games and play like a mega nit for like 200 hands or something. Only play TT-AA, AQs, AK. If someone plays back at you in anyway and you don't feel positive you have the best hand, then just fold. You give up some EV for sure, but you only lose 7bbs if someone raises a cbet or something. By the end of the 200 hands you will prolly be down like 1/4 bi or something assuming you don't stack anybody. But you can take that time to just watch the action. I promise you will realize that the guys playing 25nl are really no better than the guys playing 10nl. Then after 200 hands, start to open your range slowly. The next couple of circuits add some hands like flatting with 66-99, AT-AQ, 9Ts-KQs. Just add in a few of these hands at a time. By the end of a 1k hand session you will be playing your standard game and all you really had to give up to get there was playing nitty for a session.

Only time I would not 3bet this is if I know a guy behind is a maniac and likely to squeeze like 35%+ of the time. If that's not the case, think mandatory 3bet. As played, post-flop is fine imo. Only problem is that you're never really getting it in way ahead. This deep he is never really showing up with a naked pair+worse fd, but you obv still have to go with it and take your 55%ish equity.

You already have the pot hu vs a CO open. I think a 3bet pre seems fine if not optimal. How narrow is your 3bet vs steal if you're not 3betting this hand?

Also, I think one thing to note is that if he is a decent to good player, he will have very few combos of JJ in his CO opening range as well as few combos of J7 and 7's with good kickers as these hands are not very well connected. Ofc it is always possible that he has A876 type hands but could even be potentially slowing up on the turn or at least making a small bet size so as not to overrep his hand and blow worse 7's out of the hand when he does have naked 7 combos.

If he is a bad player, then it is possible he has all those combos that make better hands, but could also be doing this with a million other hands.

Either way, I think this makes it a call. If you are folding here then think how narrow your continuing range is vs a turn cbet. basically you're only continuing with full houses and A7 maybe. That means you're folding like 90% of your cbet calling range here, making you mega exploitable. Cause you will fold any 7 except A7, any over pair, any J+gs, any float and any naked J, assuming you call with like AQJ9 or something vs his cbet. That's almost your whole range as you will rarely have JJ or J7 here calling oop vs a CO open.

I would not fold here and prolly would have 3bet pre. tough not knowing any stats but I dont think I would fold to a turn barrell. If he is good or bad he could be value betting other hands besides a 7. He could also be bluffing knowing you will c/c 1 street with a J or over pair or 89T. If he is average reg-fish nit type and will check back all over pairs, J's+gs type hands and not bluff very often, then you could fold here I guess but I wouldn't vs. 90% of villains.

Thanks :) Ya I have put more work into my PLO game in 2 months than I did in about 4 years of playing NL. I was really crushing the lowest levels and moved up expecting to play the same game and beat 25pl at least. I may be beating it as is, since I haven't really gotten a good sample, but I could just tell even from the first session that I was in some uncomfortable spots that I wasn't used to, even though every player at the table was a fish. I'm sure a lot of adjustments could be made, but I feel like after talking to you guys, the biggest of those is preflop. In retrospect, it seems like I'm just spewing off money in some spots trying to iso and 3bet light etc.

Thanks for all the advice everyone!

Zenfish: You're right, I think I often get caught up on the idea of being the aggressor and not just how to make the most money. I think you hear so often how important it is to be aggressive and pushing every edge right to the verge of spewy. I sometimes get in my head that if I simply play tighter and more aggressive than everyone else, over time the money will accumulate in my corner. I'm starting to realize that putting pressure on you're opponents doesn't really work if they don't feel any pressure. Therefore, it is probably a big leak to be 3betting a hand that plays better flatted or raising a hand that plays better limping behind, just for the sake of being aggressive.

Tom: 1. I do think that in these games I am playing too loose from UTG. I sometimes get in a bad habit of seeing a hand and raising it because thats what I normally do, without even taking time look at who else is at the table. This is especially a big leak with hands on the edge of my opening range and something I need to be more aware of.

2. Kinda already addressed this, but I could prolly play more hands cheaply. These guys will put the money in post-flop with weak hands, so why build pots pre and take away my own edge with less post-flop play? Should spend my money smarter by playing more hands at a cheaper price. I will still be miles ahead of their ranges and have lots of postflop play IP to exploit them.

3. I fold to about 50% of 3bets. I assume you think I fold to much less than that based on your post, but I could be wrong? Is 50% too much or too little in your opinion?

4. This is something I've been working on a lot. I knew I wasn't value betting enough after about a week of play at 4pl. This seems to be a big issue for lots of micro players and I am still working on finding the right value bet/check back balance. However, I have opened my value betting range a lot and feel like it's closer to a strenght of my game rather than one of the many weaknesses. This is especially true in these really soft games where you know they will not be bluff raising ever. Since our opponents will all have this leak, we can also assume that river raises are never thin and can pretty much fold to them with anything but the nuts most times. All that makes me feel very comfortable betting for thin value, especially on the river.

jonna: This is all good advice. I do need to think about the game more like your post and less like and Isildur1 article. I should know by now that I can't run over every game and need to adjust more dramatically to dramatically different games. I should prolly just drop the idea of isolation in these realllllly loose passive games and just play more solid post-flop. I get really bored playing this way, but that doesn't mean it's not best.

Thanks for the input guys. If you had to guess, what kind of ranges do you think would be optimal for a game like this? I have been playing about 26/22 in more taggy games. Do you think it would be optimal to have my vpip stay close to the same since my hands are still crushing their 80% ranges and just drop my pfr down to about 16% or something in that range by limping more of the hands I normally iso with, such as Ah9c7h5c? I feel like this type of hand served me well IP when I could get in a bunch of hu spots vs nitty reg-fish, but it has been downhill with this type of hand when isoing 2 limpers from the CO and getting called by the BTN, SB, UTG and HJ.

Also should I be looking to put some more distance between my EP ranges compared to my LP raises? For example, I play somewhere in the range of 12/12 from UTG and 32/26 from the BTN. Should my UTG be even more nitty, like 8/8 since I will be playing almost every pot multi-way oop and my BTN be more in the area of 35/20? I feel like I'm playing bad every time I limp cause it feels so gross, but it seems like limping suited aces, 99-QQ and T975ds stuff might be a better option than raising or folding.

Glad to see you moving up in the world lol
Just curious, have you noticed any difference in the amount of times you get cold called when 3betting smaller as compared to larger? I would think this would effect the decision somewhat.

Also it seems like against some opponents that it would be majorly beneficial to 3bet smaller while against others it would be the opposite.

For an extreme example, let's assume someone is opening 50% of their hands and 4betting almost every time they are 3bet. Well, it seems like the best approach against this person would be to tighten up our 3betting range and then just 5bet them every time. In this case, it would be best to be 3betting pot.

Ofc, as we move to the other side of the spectrum, where you talk about guys only opening 8% and only 4betting AAxx, our best play would be to 3bet smaller and force them to play some post flop.

It seems to me that if we pot 3bet against the first guy every time and only 2.75x vs the second guy every time, we are really not exploitable because they can't assign a hand range to our different sizings. Plus, as an added benefit, we will look even more balanced to other players since we might show up with AAQJds one time after potting and then the very same hand the next time after only 3xing. They would have to have quite a bit of play time with us before they realized our sizing was player dependent, especially at micros. And even if they did know what was going on, they would really have to change their game plan to adjust to our sizings, which no one at the micros is going to do.

Ofc, these are extreme examples, but it seems like every player falls somewhere inbetween and the closer they are to one side or the other might make it better to decide to pot or only 2.75x.

That being said, these are things that I really only thought about while watching the video. I actually 3x my 3bets every time so don't think I'm disagreeing. Just thinking lol

What stakes do you normally play and which stakes will you be doing your videos at? Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere.

Yes I suppose the 4bet call is quite close. I just was thinking that my hand flops pretty well and I have position and can play close to perfect post. But yes if he does have aces Im in bad shape and if he doesnt then he can easily have rundowns that dominate mine. Prolly a fold and I rly am surprised he showed up with such a bad hand.

Would you be calling the 4bet if the Ad was a Th?
and what about if the 6c was an 8s?
if no, then what about a 8h?

when he calls the turn raise I guess he very often has a 7 given that he checked back the flop. Seems like your turn raise makes it look like you're repping a 7 as well.

If he is thinking he will know it's very hard for you to have a J because you're not c/r many J's on a paired board ott. Since he has a 7 a lot of the time it's also hard for you to have a 7 just based on combinatorics *sp.

I guess the upside here is the good river bet sizing which could look like a thin value bet on the river. Since most of his 3betting range pre that has a 7 in it is made up of rundowny type hands, its likely he has a bad kicker with it and with him being a nit, he might give it up since you're repping a better 7 and seem to be trying to get value out of 789 or 678.

If he's not thinking, I guess he will sometimes say "if he has a J I'm losing so I better fold, which is nice too.

Overall, I think it is a bit spewy since you're basically trying to force him to fold trips quite often. I think the turn raise is ok, but once he calls, I would prolly give up on the river unless you think hes pretty dense.

Im so confused. Everyone has different advice. :(

I do have to say that I think I like just 3x raising pre instead of potting. If were not thinning the field either way, then we can save a little money but still make a pot big enough to make a good sized cbet and therefore turn bet when we flop a fd or set and want to get it in.

I def am happy to gii on the flop. I just think leading or c/r even will not often get it in since it is a limped pot. The only way we can get it in or even leave ourselves with a small stp to ship on the turn is if they decide to raise our lead, allowing us to 3bet the flop or if they 3bet if we decide to c/r. So, if we lead or c/r and they flat or b/c and any 4,5,8,9,T or heart hits the turn, then we are not sure what to do because our flop aggression has left us with awkward stack sizes. That's like half the deck.

Wow good lookin out Sean. I didn't know that either.

Yes, I saw that as well. That's def a problem. I think I should be attempting to steal more blinds.

Yes, I talked about the AAJ4 hand a bit above. I was still thinking it was an ok open since we will be trying to get it in on any flop we will be continuing on (top set or overpair+nfd). Since our implied odds are very high I thought it was an ok open. Since both you guys see it different, I could def be wrong. I'm gunna post the individual hand in a separate thread and see what others think.