FifthBusiness

Well thought out analysis. I'll check out that article as soon as I can!

I guess I like the specificity of hands to think of, so that I can commit them to muscle memory quicker.

We'll keep chuggin' along here

Great description of your thought processes.

I posted a similar hand, also noting it is a common situation to be in. Unless we know villain is a huge spazz, then x/raising is off the table as an option. I guess it comes down to whether we can gain a river bet if we boat up on the river, to offset the improper direct odds we are getting to a bet here. From there, I think we need a GenPop idea of what the average person is doing vs. a bet from OOP on a river that pairs up.

If we think general population call a 1/2 pot (or more) bet on a paired river, then we can x/c turn. If not, then we probably have to lay down here for the reasons you mentioned. Then, once we have a sample and a feeling of how out of line our villain is, then we can react accordingly on a specific/exploitative level.

In this specific spot, having a rainbow board must hurt our ability to stay in the hand, right? Less likely villain is barreling gained fd equity on the turn.

What would our core thoughts be in classic flopped set vs. made draw on turn vs. low stakes GenPop? That's the key question here, I believe.

Thoughts?

Sounds fair to me!
Let's start with tighter ranges.

UTG

And after we are done with the standard platitudes of nuttiness, connectedness, and suitedness, lets dive into some more specifics.

Im ok with getting a bit specific, honestly. Maybe it is just me, but specific hand ranking evaluations would serve to illuminate broader theory.

Let's say QQ75 or QQ74 rainbow or with one queen suited on the CO as an opener.

Thoughts there?

I find these HHs a little clunky in my novice nature of reading, so apologies ahead of time haha

hand 1: I'd probably err on the side of just calling vs. a UTG opener here in BB, though vs. maniacs I'm sure it's a fine 3b. As for turn/river, I feel like you gotta find a fold here at some point. Being too sticky is a big leak of mine currently, as well. For me, I'd probably call turn/fold river here, though even the turn call may be suspect against the general micro stakes population (i'd love to hear what more confident players have to say).

hand 2: seems fine to me, here.

I gotta jet, so I'll take a gander at the others later!

Thoughts?

Just another quick update, so we can look back on it in the future:

First bit of elongated adversity in this adventure. The combination of running bad combined with clear leaky and poor play in the spots where odds run properly are combining for a bit of a downswing. Nothing truly brutal yet, but certainly can put a dent in one's resolve.

I am very happy with how I'm handling adversity this time around, though! After the initial moping period, I come back into the lab the next day determined to make another dent into the process of becoming a winner. So, that's a good thing.

Trying to stay active here, and in the beginning throes of a skype study group, which i think will be super beneficial.

Keep grinding folks, let's stay motivated......

I'd say a fold pre and a river fold.

agreed. As you said in the video, core concept stuff, especially preflop would be huge here at RIO. Build the foundation.

More of these greatly appreciated.

What would be your line(s) of differentiation between beginner and intermediate learners?

I assume they get blurred with people understanding certain higher level concepts and grossly misunderstanding others. I'd probably put myself in such a category. What would your baselines be, for where to fit folks?

If you plan to throw a x/r in during this hand, the flop would have been the time to do it, I feel.

On that turn, I feel like a c/c is in order?

I assume villain already had 2 pair on the flop or turn, as well?

I don't hate betting here at all. Both options seem to have merit. With a bet ott you make your future decision points much easier i think. If you check turn you're not really going to know what to do when facing certain bets OTR.

However, if you have stats up that show if/when he fires into weakness, perhaps you can take the passive line if those stats show a propensity for passivity in villain. Judging by the preflop stats you showed, my guess is that is not the case, so a bet is good i feel.

Thoughts?

Above the rim, and I like it.

I feel like a lot of times in similar spots, I rationalize a call when it is overwhelmingly probable that the opponent is nutted up ---- usually with a 'they are for sure fuckin' with me here enough of the time' sidebar. This is probably a river leak of mine.

I think your fold is a fine play here, especially considering there isn't just 1 version of the straight flush available.

Tough spot! I love the villain's xr here. Leaves him uncapped, minimum investment for what is quite possibly an all-or-nothing decision on your end, and allows him to bomb pretty much any turn, for a myriad of reasons.

After much hemming and hawing, I feel like I'm bombing here? A good player can have a pretty expanded x/r range here, especially if he's on a heater. And barring the dante's inferno scenario of TT and nfd (which i think is more often a c/c line from them), we are at worst a 2-1 dog even if he hit the board hard. And we fold out some pretty decent equity he may choose to raise here.

Plus, in a live game, I think the value of looking like a gambler AND giving pause to thinking players who are OOP against you in the future may have its own added value.

Thoughts?

Would love to delve deeper into PLO pf. I think there is a woefully small amount of that content, at least from what I've seen. The best pf stuff I see, so far, has been organically developed from threads on other spots/topics. Where, almost accidentally, pf action is brought up as a main issue.

I have no point of outside reference, but seems pretty robust to me.

Always low stakes Omaha going on at least 4 or 5 tables at each low stake level. MTTs can get some sweet overlay midweek, but generally hit the guarantees and have a fair amount of runners. Late reg/rebuy periods run a bit too long for my taste to get to those guarantees, but still solid fun Imo.

I dig the explanation on the pf call by closing action. Hadn't really heard that rationale as how that broadens are pf calling range. Perhaps it has been said a lot, but I just didn't have the ears to hear it?

Is having one suited K enough to happily call a 3-bet oop with UTG opener still to act? I feel like I may want to fold here pre? We can only really proceed on flops we absolutely smash and are forced to fold an overpair pretty damn often on flops, I feel like (or are in pretty brutal turn spots).

As for river here, at these stakes getting 3ish-1 I may have to call off the 3rd nuts once we are here? Though I like the fold if you've seen this MP play solidly, as your read of him never really bluffing here may be more spot on. In my limited hands at these lower stakes, I've seen folks jam some non-nutted hands though just because they improperly play and overvalue heavily. With less odds on a bigger jam, I definitely like a fold more, but here I feel like we are kind of stuck, even though it is certainly a sigh-call. Thoughts?

Preflop I feel like I'm folding this hand. What is the consensus on ohgod's pre call in a 3-handed game?

As for the turn, I'm on the c/c line, as well. a x/r seems creatively interesting, but seems like a lot of investment, when we could find better spots to be making moves imo.

This thread will continue to be my totem, looks like.

Been a fairly interesting few weeks.

The Good: Took down the PLO 215 Sunday tournament on True a few weeks back. Had never won a mtt (though this is a smaller one) so it was very cool. I could see where even my unrefined knowledge could be put to use in outmaneuvering folks as we got deep. It seems to me people are misplaying QUITE a bit in PLO mtts, in just my small one-tourney sample. A sweet little bolster to the BR, and most importantly, a huge confidence boost!

The Bad: Still have that losing bb/100 at the .25/.5 tables there. I do feel myself turning a corner and playing a bit better of late, however. So hopefully we see a bit of a graphical turnaround in the next month or 2?

Weaknesses to work on: I'd really like to sure up my preflop play first and foremost. Let's start the decision tree off properly, right? So, I want to keep a good eye on that.

Goals for the next month(ish):

1) Start posting hands of note here. I'll be trying for once-a-week to start. I'm going to try and find hands that have me vexed preflop (still very raw with my PF evaluation of hands imo), but then also have interesting decision points on a later street or 2, so we get a more well-rounded discussion.

2) try to get 750-1000 hands per week online and get up close to 10K hands total. From there, I'd like to study the ins and outs of PT4 analysis; actually getting a hang of the software would be super beneficial, I assume. Any folks with skill there, hit me up!!

3) Start an actual, legit study skype group thing. There have been about 3 attempts I've seen on these threads, where someone posts about wanting to collaborate with others ---- about 10 people reply, and then nothing happens from there. If this trend continues, then I'll try and spearhead such an endeavor, and actually PM those who reply. I'll probably attempt this in a few weeks if nobody does before me.

Thanks for indulging me, and let's keep grinding!

Thanks for diving in the low stakes pool with us!! It's a huge help. GL on your new venture here on RIO

I'd love to see the number crunchery, for sure!

not blocking pairs as part of your rationale is very interesting, hadn't thought of it in this spot. I do wonder if it officially helps or hurts your spot. I certainly see where you're coming from.

What would your value range on a turn c-r on this board be? I feel like not terribly much that is also oop in a 3-bet pot. And, if your c-r is mainly just a pickoff play for folks overstabbing turns, wouldn't his call on turn shut you down? or do you feel have to go for the 2 street barrel once you take this line? Does a diamond river shut you down in this particular hand?

I definitely agree that bottom 2 is a ticking time bomb.

Would a better 'general' course of action in tight spots with bottom2 to be wait for a brick turn and then bet when villain has a tighter c/c range? And otherwise shut it down?

Certainly has me wracking my brain!!

My guess is he certainly wants to get stacks in.....but that doesn't necessarily mean he has a 9. If he did, it
would be a fairly weak one with little to no redraw (again, as a pure guess vs. general public). I feel like NFD + other stuff would be a more likely holding. A huge draw + the 9 i feel like has a more likely c/r or c/c line.....

I feel like I'd have to stack off and get it in here with a generally new opponent, but this could be a major leak in my very raw game haha.

Certainly a worthwhile post; keep the live HHs coming! I get to play in a couple of live PLO and O8 games and hearing about the dynamics of other such action games, esp at higher stakes would certainly interest/help me!

This is definitely the type of spot i see a lot and can get quite dicey. Would love to see more discussion here on it!!

Care to elaborate on your assertion to check back, miami?

How do we all feel about the preflop call? I am of the 'fold pre' camp.....

Makes sense to bet out here for the reasons mentioned earlier, but i figure some % of time you want to be able to check trips as well. Would also having diamonds or some other redraw be the type of hand to do so? Or should we be more random in our balance?