Eckesach

Hey Tom, would love to give you some footage 4tabling plo50 zoom as this is my limit atm. Please PM me to give me some details for recording. If you're fast you can have the footage in 24h :)

Think bet/f  is fine otf, you block 2pair and have a BDFD, stackoff is way too loose imho and checking is basically giving up as you have a hard time playing the turn.

On the Turn i would simply ch/f, the Q is a bad card, he has a tone of spiked 2P or Wraps and you can even be behind a slow played Set or 2P waiting for a safe Turn.

next time pls use a hand converter, makes it much easier to follow the action in the hand.

PF: seems ok

F: call is fine and fold to the raise, you have what i call a headsup hand which can be played good vrs a single opponent, vrs 2 players showing massive strength one of your draws can be dominated or both and you get the money in pretty bad. Dream scenario is both have a Set and your draws are live but that practically never happens.

Your exact hand is only good to 3b vrs a loose opener 30%+ with a weak and fitorfold heavy postflop game. Doesn't matter where he sits as long as he fits in the criteria. For you a better see you sitting otb or co with nitty btn and blinds behind.

His Range ott is maybe a set waiting for non diamond Turn, 56, or a strong P+ComboDraw maybe with blockers to the straight.

PF: if your opponents are very loose and weak postflop i guess this is fine, vrs Nits you can get yourself in trouble as SB can flat same AAxx or AKKx and you give a chance to back raise but that won't happen too often i assume.

F: Don't like the cbet, vrs 2 players w only a Qhigh FD you have not hit the flop hard enough to get stacks in and when it gets checked through you can pick up lots of good cards to improve your equity. Although when BTN bets you can see what SB does before you have to decide what to do. 

T: Simply a math problem, the SB has any Top2P+ and P + strong Draws, when your FD is alive you can call but you have to deal with the CO who is still in the hand. Worst Case is when someone has a higher FD and the other has your Wrap covered, than you get the money in real bad.

Though to say but in game i would have pit it in but not felt too happy about it as its for me a follow up mistake from the bloated pot otf.

Cbetting is good but imho only when you have picked the right guy to 3bet your junky double suited hand. In order to show a profit vrs an utg raiser with the 3b he has to play really weak postflop and fold a tone to your cbets.

Against a good opponent you just isolating yourself in a bloated pot vrs a range that dominates you.

From checking back otf you gain nothing because you have low chance to improve and against any reasonable CRing Range you are crushed on this board and can safely fold. 

I stack off with Top2P+, maybe Top+Bottom Pair + BD Draws, P+NFD, TP+WRap, NFD+StraightDraw.

+1

Not so easy as the topic is pretty wide.

Here is a start:

The profitability of a starting hand depends on a couple of factors.

The equity destribution vrs AAxx is good in 3bet and 4b spots vrs AAxx heavy Ranges but no against aggro 3better where your nice small double suited hands are dominated by lots of ds big rundowns and ds KKxx or ds double pairs. 

So a hand like QT96ds is good vrs 3% 3bet range but not so good vrs a 10% range because you just know your villain has AAxx  in the first scenario which gives you great visablility.

Some other factors are position, stack sizes, villains postflop abilities, other players in the hand and many more.

Thanks Tom, i already felt the check behind was a mistake but needed some prove :)

Very nice to see the numbers and that the profit will mainly come from  his folds and his ch/calls w 2P Draws, thats a point i have to think more about. 

BTW very good work here, i study your Vids quite a bit in the last days, helped me a lot to delete the massive gray areas in my plo game!

Maybe i can formulate my last post better, i meant that my 60% AAxx 4betting range leaves my 1/4 pot cbets protected because the regs don't attack such boards and small cbets nearly as often as they should against me.

To be unexploitable it is best to bet 1/4 pot and call a shove on all paired boards with my strongest part of the range namely KK+ but to get the most of the zoom environment it can be better to bet/f more KK/AA type of hands on boards where no draws are possible.

Against nits it may be best to bet/f most nontrips+ hands except on wet paired boards like 667tt or so.

Against maniacs i better ch/f air and bet/call my KK+ all the time.

Thanks for the input, zenfish, glad to start a discussion.

It's not that i try to save pC money but i didn't want to bias the discussion from the start with my own thoughts.

Here is a little statistic für one player say Top20% without a pair:

[b][URL='http://propokertools.com/odds_oracle']ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.26 Professional)[/URL][/b]
Omaha Hi, Generic syntax
PLAYER_1 20%!xx
600000 trials (randomized)


[b]How often do(es)
PLAYER_1 flop hand category at least trips[/b]
[b]14,8955%[/b] (89373)


So in 15% the player has trips or better, not many situations but it happens frequently.

My own observation from playing plo50-plo200 zoom is that on dry boards almost all players fold to a 1/4 pot bet and i never saw a player bluff shoving over me on a 772ish board. Once in a blue moon there is a recreational with shoving random KKxx but that's it so without wraps or FDs possible my adjustment would be to bet 1/4 pot and fold every time to a shove, right? Superduperexploitable in theory but in game no reg even the laggy ones can do much about it as i for myself have around 60% of the time when 4betting AAxx. 

Oh sorry, that makes his PF Range pretty wide but i think i would still stand behind my postflop planning for the hand.

File: HH20140513 Diotima #5 - $1-$2 - USD Pot Limit Omaha.txt
PokerStars Zoom Hand #116118017793:  Omaha Pot Limit ($1/$2) - 2014/05/13 14:04:01 CET [2014/05/13 8:04:01 ET]
Table 'Diotima' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Romanov88 ($208 in chips)
Seat 2: Eckesach ($219.01 in chips)
Seat 3: bulletpusher ($256.95 in chips)
Seat 4: j4kerstar ($274.64 in chips)
Seat 5: eugens218 ($255.39 in chips)
Seat 6: yangrl ($100 in chips)
Eckesach: posts small blind $1
bulletpusher: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Eckesach [4h 5d 6d 7h]
j4kerstar: folds
eugens218: folds
yangrl: folds
Romanov88: raises $3 to $5
Eckesach: raises $12 to $17
bulletpusher: folds
Romanov88: calls $12
*** FLOP *** [9h 4c 8c]
Eckesach: checks
Romanov88: bets $27
Eckesach: calls $27
*** TURN *** [9h 4c 8c] [3h]
Eckesach: checks
Romanov88: bets $76
Eckesach: calls $76
*** RIVER *** [9h 4c 8c 3h] [Kc]
Eckesach: checks
Romanov88: bets $88 and is all-in
Eckesach: folds
Uncalled bet ($88) returned to Romanov88
Romanov88 collected $239.20 from pot
Romanov88: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $242 | Rake $2.80
Board [9h 4c 8c 3h Kc]
Seat 1: Romanov88 (button) collected ($239.20)
Seat 2: Eckesach (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 3: bulletpusher (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: j4kerstar folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: eugens218 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: yangrl folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Preflop is more a fold or call to me, when this 80/4 guy makes a raise he is very strong and you are isolating yourself against hands which dominates you quite a bit. Calling PF keeps the pot small for your speculative hand and gets you playing ip vrs target w big SPR.

As played i cannot fully understand why you giving him no FDs when he donks, he can have combodraws, 2P+, Sets and you just have a naked sucker wrap + BDFD. I assume you're doing not that great vrs his range, call ip but fold Turn without improving to a straight or spiking heavy equity w 2d or so seems reasonable to me.  

Even the biggest donk can have a hand sometime, especially when he has a 4% raising range to start with :)

Thanks for the comment, your mentioned flop play makes a lot of sense. As played what about Dbet/call ott as an alternative line? This would let us realize our equity and creates FE although i can't assume the percentage of hands i can bring him to fold, maybe i do the ppt math in the next days.

in addition i have following NLH statistics, mainly Fullring:

nl50 fr zoom: 74bb/100 Std Dev 22k hands

nl100 fr zoom: 70bb/100 Std Dev 50k hands

So based on these stats i guess nobody should worry about getting variance-owned like sh... in plo compared to nlh, calculate with the factor 1,5 and adjust simply your brm imho. 

@Tom: haha, would be glad to have 1/10th of that as my winrate but i can assure that in zoom there are decent winrates possible if you "pool-select" well and have the right strategies for the zoom regs and maniacs. For myself i have tones of leaks in my game and do quite well in the plo200 game atm.

Here are my statistics for playing kinda nitty 24/17 Style:

plo100 zoom 126bb/100 Std Dev 17k hands 0.48Vpp/h

plo200 zoom 120bb/100 Std Dev 14k hands 0.66Vpp/h

The standard deviation is for plo relative small, could be for me leaving the zoom table with 175bb and having run it twice helping me fighting the variance. 

Winrates are pretty hard to assume, ask my 300k hands later :)

Thanks Slayer, this sounds like a reasonable plan, must admit that double floating in plo is not yet in my arsenal :)

the effective stacksize otr was 140$ or so, he had me covered so i would not discount Flushes he shoves for thin value.

Hello Janne, glad to see you making Vids for RIO, very interesting topic!

min 23:38 can you explain why calling his 3b ott has higher EV than gii? If you don't fold otr on any blank than imho you set yourself up for some tough decisions when draws get there on a club, an A,J,9,Q, or even 8 or 6.

@ anxaas: can't see any real FE, villain has not many if not no higher Sets in his coldcalling a 3b oop Range and i hate life to raise myself and my equity out of the pot otf. Raising to see where you stand is kinda old school technique and imho one of many reasons the old guys dissapear from the poker scene