Cary Pall

tbh, I'm folding pre. Postflop I probably play same way.

I don't mind the light open, but I'd fold to the 3 bet pre (you're OOP, have a marginal hand, and you're giving the player in between a perfect spot to squeeze). I'm betting more for value on the turn, since the jack should improve a lot of holdings- 2 pair, pair/str8 combos, flush draws, etc. As played, on river....ugh. Not sure if I like bet-folding or check-calling/evaluating. I'm not sure what hands villain would play this way that you can get value from on the river....QQ, AJ? I think hands like AK, QJ, and maybe QQ/AJ etc. bet flop.

I think flatting pre is fine. I'd size a bit more on the flop. After the 2nd player flats the c/r, I sigh fold. As far as ranges go, in a $3 you could still easily have the best hand since players can show up with one pair hands, 4x, combo draws, flush draws, etc.... I would call the sb's shove if the other player hadn't flatted. But, given the action, I just fold.

I'm all in.

I'm in here. You should still be ahead of both ranges. The 10bb shover is on a super wide range, and the 2nd player can still have plenty of weaker aces in his range as well as some hands like KQ, etc. With only 15bb's yourself, take a nice gamble here where you should have plenty of equity vs. both ranges.

I posted a bad link earlier to an old blog. Here you go for anyone interested: http://carypallpoker.blogspot.com/2011/04/omaha-8.html

You're the one playing the 180s right now and have a better idea of what the average field is like...that's why I want to hear your math and rationalization. My overall knowledge of these is from two years ago and what I know from watching 180 videos currently. Maybe I'm expecting them to be typical call stationy donks like in the past....but then again, most of those players were Americans and they're all gone now.

Do the math for me then...

I gotta add, though....his turn sizing is really strange to me....how would everyone interpret that on this wet a board?? Obv. it must've looked bluffy to OP, since he called down.

Not totally sure how I'd approach this preflop (prob just fold?), but if I 3 bet...I'm leading flop hard, check-folding turn. I don't like the idea of double barreling my stack off on turn/river to try and make him fold his Jx, 1010, Q10s, etc type hands. If he's 3x'd utg, snap called a 3 bet and called a flop bet on this board...I think you'll have a tough time getting him off those hands. 1010/77 might be the only hands that could maybe fold to a turn barrel, but that's a tiny part of his range here. Jx, Qx, pair/draw combos, etc. likely aren't going anywhere, so I probably just sigh and check-fold and leave myself with a playable stack.

With AQs and no reads this early in the game, I prob. just flat and take a flop, knowing that the limper will likely come in as well. I don't want to 3-bet-fold here, or 3 bet and get flatted in a couple spots and have to play OOP in a bloated pot.

Do you really think you're getting through 5 people in a low buy in 180 about 50% of the time? I don't. They aren't sophisticated enough to realize how strong your raise looks with your stack size, they'll flat a lot, and some will shove way wider than 10%. Now, if you have certain reads that villains are tight or are capable of interpreting your raise as super strength, then by all means raise any two.....but I just dont see fish folding that often here.

Yeah, if you anticipate a 3bet if you open, then I think shoving is probably better.

Shoving is my default play. It's +cEV and it puts maximum pressure on hands like Ax, small pairs, etc. that might consider jamming over a min-raise. Plus, I'd really wouldn't be too thrilled about raise-folding KQ with 11bbs. However, I do think there are scenarios where min-raise/folding (to everyone but the 40k stack) might be better....ex. is if tight, straightforward players are behind you that won't get out of line, or perhaps if you've been really tight lately, etc. Most players will give you credit for strength when you open in MP with 11bbs, so I don't think you will get played back at toooo often, unless your image is really LAG.

And I think it's pretty effective in a lot of spots, provided players aren't being astute and picking up on what you're actually doing. I think these plays are actually really interesting vs. fish or passive players or regs who are seeing this for the first time. Most people were just tossing aside your posts as trolling or whatever, but I understand the points you are making and find them interesting. Still, the main problems I have about playing the trashier end of your hands like this is that 1.- you won't be playing playing with most of these players long term enough to have the desired long term metagame effects....and 2. Players (regs and a few special fish) are just going to instinctively pounce on these spots a lot and you're losing a decent percentage of your short stack too often IMO. I think the trash end of your range works best at FT where there's mostly passive fish, which seems to be exactly what you did in most of your posts. Conversely, limping the nutted end of your range vs. regs has an immediate positive effect....but those players will adjust in the future, so it's not something you can do every tourny.

I'm only playing on Merge right now since I live in the US. But, something I've noticed in recent times is that a lot of the higher stakes top OPR players are making the same, at first strange, short stack EP limps....and in general they're folding to my aggression. When I started seeing this in the last couple months, my first reaction was WTF is this top player doing limping a 9bb stack utg and folding to a shove, etc or showing down J9o on the times it gets to showdown, etc. I'm starting to understand the reasoning behind it, although it's still up in the air whether it's sound or not. Most good regs would argue it isn't. This was my first reaction, too, but I realize a lot of what they're trying is player dependent and situational and in some cases may be better than a shove or fold, etc.

"You are forgetting about hands i can shove or min raise with, and keep in mind you are not at the table so I can limp more trash."

So, what you're saying is that 100% of your min-raises or shoves do not contain JJ+? Your limps then contain a range of 1.8% JJ+ and 1.8% bottom of the barrel trash hands?

There's no need to come off as such a dick, dude. Maybe it's just your phrasing and you don't mean to, but c'mon man.....I'm always open to discussion, esp. unusual situations and finding ways to gain extra edge on regs, but no need to be so condescending to me, man. I'm not the best player in the world, in 180s or anything else, but I'm not an idiot, either.

I don't care if what I'm doing to fish is obvious to regs. I don't have to be balanced vs. fish, just optimal. When a reg starts calling me correctly, I then adjust again and start making more outside of the box plays. And I don't mind throwing in some odd plays like limps in these spots, etc. simply b/c it will look suspicious to regs and will sometimes work better than a normal min-steal the first time or so you try it.

Again, I still have a hard time believing that you're only limping trash 1.8% of the time...50/50 mix of JJ+ and trash. If this is the case then I'm obviously not jamming my 99/1010 etc. if I'm the bb. But, this isn't the case. Based on your posts it feels like your limping 50% of the time with only 2% or so being nutted. So, based on that alone, you can see why I'm so eager to pounce on the limps and iso the others widely. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm only forming my opinion based on the the hands you've posted so far, since I don't know you and have probably never played with you.

JJ+ is 1.8% of hands. So, you're telling me you're only limping trash 1.8% of the time in extremely selective spots? Maybe I'm confused, but I have a hard time believing that you only limp with trash 1.8% of the time in spots like these. If you are, then I obviously have to tighten my range considerably. I also don't have to shove if I know this. I can min rr my nutted range and also hands I'm willing to play against the short stacks but still fold if you shove your nutted range, etc.

Also, payouts in these are very top heavy, so when everyone at the final 9 is roughly equal in chips at about <10bb-15bb, I'm not as concerned about ICM. Grant it, I am not taking every thin cEV+ spot b/c of some ICM considerations, but I'm not going to overdo it and play too much tighter in a tourny where payout structures are this top heavy and stacks are even and short.

In this hand, picking up your 1bb, the all in players 1bb, plus the blinds and antes is a 25k-30k+ increase to our stack. More than worth it IMO if you're limping way more trash than nutted hands, since you're folding so often in that scenario.

At exactly 10bb or less, I'm only min-raising monsters vs. fish who aren't capable of realizing I have to be strong. There's no need to be balanced vs. fish that aren't paying attention or understand what I'm doing. I'm balancing my entire shove range vs. regs, which is why I shove this to begin with. So, there's no reason for me to have a min-fold range here or a limp-call/limp-fold range. If I'm a tad deeper, then I have both a min-fold and min-call range.

Who is afraid of a limp in this spot? Maybe a bunch of fish or nits that made a $3r 180 ft... Bottom line is that the weakness you're showing by limping, your high VPIP, the fact that everyone is 10bb or less, and the dead money in the pot is only going to encourage a reg to ISO even wider than normal. Every time you limp-fold, you're just giving away chips and losing whatever fold equity you still have.

I agree that a LAG style is best, esp. in 180s. I also like doing things outside of the box in certain spots. But, overall, I'd much prefer to be balanced by shoving my entire range <10bbs. There will be some exceptions, but I don't like letting my stack diminish even shorter and essentially spewing by having an utter trash limp or min-fold range at 10bbs.

I think with the hands you're posting you're being results oriented. I doubt limping 72o, etc. UTG is going to be profitable at a final table with anyone competent. In these examples, no one played back at you and you had an easy time c-betting vs. the big blind in the best case scenario where everyone folds. Where are the hands that people play back at you and your stack dips below 8bb or so?

I think he could easily have K10s-KQ in his flop value range as well as hands like 88-JJ that are trying to define their hand. And I think if he's pot controlling the turn with these, then he's calling most rivers, esp. the 7h....you shouldn't have many flushes or 7x's in your range, so I think he might look you up light here. What hands (other than air) would you play this way besides K10-KQ/AA? Overall, I just try to avoid these long-ball bluff type plays, esp. when this shallow. I'd rather c-bet/fold and move on.

I might just min-raise to induce as well. I think if there's ever a time to fold JJ in this spot it could be when you min-raise and then have the other 3 go all in. The fact that you min raise 10bb utg into short stacks and THEN they all get it in, well now you might be able to get off it, since everyone's range is much tighter.

So, you're limp-folding KK here as well? Would you be posting this hand if the regs showed down A10, AJ and 99/1010/AQ/AK? If I'm the bb here, my thinking is.....loose-passive (aggressive?) player who limps everything from 72o to KK in this spot in ep w/ 10bbs limps in, 6bb reg jams really wide in LP, button is a reg who realizes all this and rejams <9bbs somewhat wide.....I wake up with 99/1010/AK/AQ in the bb and lots of dead money in the pot and jam....and you fold JJ-KK along with all of your K4o, 72o, Q3o, etc. and only call me with AA.

Well, just walk through the hand. You min raise pre then you flat his min reraise. So, it's likely you don't have a big hand like AK, KK, AA, etc. K95 rainbow checks around. 7 on turn all rainbow, 2 checks-he bets-you call. I think you would lead now on the turn with hands like KJ/K10, Kxs, etc., and you would probably lead or c/r the turn with anything better like 2 pair, sets, etc. The 2 doesn't complete any legitimate 2 pair hands and it also doesn't complete any straight draws. So, when you lead the river, it just screams of a busted draw. All of the hands that marginally hit the flop, like 9x, 5x, 66/88, etc. would just check-call (or check-fold) the river and not lead. Had the river been a 6,7, 8, 9, 10,J or Q instead of a 2, then I think a bluff would be more reasonable. This river lead just sticks out like a sore thumb and he could easily put you on J10, QJ, Q10, 76s, 87s, etc. since it's very unusual for you to take this line with Kx, 9x, etc.

Pretty much agree w/ Comp. I'm min-calling off most of the time. Min-folding to nits in the bb. If the sb is a typical $2.50 fish, this is a perfect spot for the BB to squeeze light. It's the bubble, likely dead money from the sb, and he can put you in a tough spot given your stack size and the strength he's showing. I'd imagine he'll show up with Ax a lot, broadways that we're ahead of, 22-99 that were flipping with and sometimes 1010+/AJ+ (but at least we have blockers to some of those). I think if we shove this much on the button, then we're only getting called by hands that are ahead. He'll probably fold 22-55/66, but he'll also fold all the Ax and 10x hands we dominate.

Totally standard. It's tough to worry too much about ICM here when everyone has essentially 10bbs. I'm min-calling everyone or shoving here for sure. Play for the win.

The 2 is a really bad bluff card. Your line doesn't make much sense, so he's hero calling your busted draws.

"I wonder if there is any interest in discussing how to a play a crushing LAG style of short stack poker. I am interested in sharing some of my success and knowledge. Some might be interested to know, that of all my crazy hand histories, I am beating you all at this this game."

Not sure how limping 72o in EP is a crushing, LAG style of short stack play...? I haven't played a 180 since April 2011, but I'm assuming this hand is from a final table of a $3r 180. If you elect to play this hand, why not min raise? Is the limp to confuse all of your 6 opponents behind you into folding?...essentially a cheap steal with a cbet vs. the bb if no one decides to play? If I'm one of your opponents I'm squeezing this spot ridiculously wide if I'm any of the stacks behind you.

fold....I don't understand why you limp. This is obviously the best result you could get, HU vs. the bb....most of the time you're just giving away 4k

I'm just jamming this.