Augqie

I agree with Jonna and Overbet. The reason is that opponent has a 10% 3b% from the blinds, meaning that he has a lot of Axxx hands in his range which will give you action when you raise the flop, but which will shut down on action killer turn cards.

I really suck at constructing PPT ranges:

So AA** already includes the next hand AddA* in your range,
and KQ** already includes the last two AKQJ and KQJT

Adjusting for opponents preflop starting range (tried ranges between 20%!5% - 40%!12%), and/or making his flop range tighter like Phil suggested, hero's equity lies between 26% and 33%. See for details below.

Omaha Hi Simulation ?
876,580 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 8s4cKs
Hand Equity Wins Ties
8dTd4hKd 27.49% 217,756 46,485
(30%!8%):(KK,88,44,K84,K8:ss,AsK*s,567[Js-As]:ss,AsK[5-7][5-7]:ss!RR) 72.51% 612,339 46,485
Edit · Link · 2+2 · Deuces Cracked · LeggoPoker

Omaha Hi Simulation ?
1,132,420 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 8s4cKs
Hand Equity Wins Ties
8dTd4hKd 32.89% 345,260 54,351
(40%!12%):(KK,88,44,K84,K8:ss,AsK*s,567[Js-As]:ss,K[Js-As][9-A]:ss,[Js-As]K[5-7][5-7]:ss!RR) 67.11% 732,809 54,351
Edit · Link · 2+2 · Deuces Cracked · LeggoPoker

Omaha Hi Simulation ?
813,440 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 8s4cKs
Hand Equity Wins Ties
8dTd4hKd 32.62% 244,720 41,241
(30%!12%):(KK,88,44,K84,K8:ss,AsK*s,567[Js-As]:ss,K[Js-As][9-A]:ss,[Js-As]K[5-7][5-7]:ss!RR) 67.38% 527,479 41,241
Edit · Link · 2+2 · Deuces Cracked · LeggoPoker

Omaha Hi Simulation ?
1,146,360 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 8s4cKs
Hand Equity Wins Ties
8dTd4hKd 30.02% 326,276 35,706
(20%!5%):(KK,88,44,K84,K8:ss,AsK*s,567[Js-As]:ss,K[Js-As][9-A]:ss,[Js-As]K[5-7][5-7]:ss!RR) 69.98% 784,378 35,706
Edit · Link · 2+2 · Deuces Cracked · LeggoPoker

Omaha Hi Simulation ?
1,531,760 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 8s4cKs
Hand Equity Wins Ties
8dTd4hKd 30.06% 430,048 60,718
(30%!5%):(KK,88,44,K84,K8:ss,AsK*s,567[Js-As]:ss,K[Js-As][9-A]:ss,[Js-As]K[5-7][5-7]:ss!RR) 69.94% 1,040,994 60,718
Edit · Link · 2+2 · Deuces Cracked · LeggoPoker

Omaha Hi Simulation ?
1,175,060 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 8s4cKs
Hand Equity Wins Ties
8dTd4hKd 33.30% 365,939 50,661
(30%!8%):(KK,88,44,K84,K8:ss,AsK*s,567[Js-As]:ss,K[Js-As][9-A]:ss,[Js-As]K[5-7][5-7]:ss!RR) 66.70% 758,460 50,661
Edit · Link · 2+2 · Deuces Cracked · LeggoPoker

Omaha Hi Simulation ?
3,923,700 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 8s4cKs
Hand Equity Wins Ties
8dTd4hKd 26.51% 903,716 273,163
KK,88,44,K84,K8:ss,AsK*s,567[Js-As]:ss,K[Js-As][9-A]:ss,[Js-As]K[5-7][5-7]:ss!RR 73.49% 2,746,821 273,163
Edit · Link · 2+2 · Deuces Cracked · LeggoPoker

1. Propokertools already takes into account the board and your hand, so when I give villain KK it is accounted for that it is unlikely.
2. Taking a starting range, like the 23% that I did, and then adding 22 in his range makes sure that there are very few 22 combo's accounted for (only AA22, KK22, QQ22 and a few more)
So all likelihoods are included.

You forgot in your range to give our opponent KK,88,22,K8. Also, you should start with a preflop starting range. It is unclear what the cold calling range of the BU is, but if you take it as 23% and his 3b 0%, and you take your range plus the sets, hero's equity is 44%:

Omaha Hi Simulation ?
6,335,320 trials (Exhaustive)
board: Kd8c2c
Hand Equity Wins Ties
ks 5s 9h 8h 44.23% 2,593,388 417,252
23%6h:(KK,88,22,K8,K*c*c*, 8*c*c*, 2*c*c*, Ac*c**, K2**) 55.77% 3,324,680 417,252

I think your range is too wide though.

Depends on what range we give villain. Against a range of QJT9,JT98,T987,9876,T9,KQJT,QJ98 you have 33%, but I did not factor in back door flushdraws your opponent no doubtly has, so against this range it is worse than 33%. I think this flop hits villains range near 100%, therefore hero's fold equity gets close to 0%. Just check and see if we can hit a K or Q?

+1 for this.

'find a new site...' LOL

It does make sense to me now , thanks!

FIrst of, thanks 5carab for taking the time to look at the math + thought process!

Regarding your 2nd point, I think I miss it. The way I see it: We can either call or jam, HJ has a range of which a part will fold to either call or jam, and a part which will jam when we call, where I assume that if we jam this range (that jams when we call) would call. The aforementioned two parts of his range are not of interest to us, we have no influence on it whether we call or jam. We are interested in the part of his range that calls when we call, but folds when we jam. All the rest stays equal, right? Regarding the turn play, the deeper we are, the more important it gets. I do not know how to factor this in. Anyone?

Regarding your first point: In my experience these passive players only jam with nutsy hands. So the range is tight IMO. But I m interested to see what happens if we make it looser. I'll get back with some results on that later.

Let me think about it, I have no real time at the moment.

If stacks would be different things might sway to calling be favorite over jamming. In this case calling the all in costs us $12.55. If it would be $22.81 or more, calling becomes favorite above jamming. This comes from solving the following equation: 0.35 * ( 55.6 - ( 2 * 12.55 ) + 2*C ) = 0.27 * ( 30.5 + 3 * C ) -> C = $22.18

So if CU would have raised pot (= 35.25), again being all in, we would have to call 35.25-7=28.25. If HJ would have had 22.18 or more remaining, we should call instead of jamming.

Let me know what you guys think, This many computations usually contain errors....

Seems our equity hu is around 35%, and drops to around 27% when HJ would come along (see below for PPT sims). HU potsize is 55.6, so we expect to win .35 x 55.6 = $ 19.46
Threeway we have a 3way pot (and possibly a sidepot build on the turn(HU)). For the 3way pot 68.15 we expect to win .27 x 68.15 = 18.4. To calculate the value of the side pot I assume we allways go all in on the turn and take the equity we have against HJ now on the flop. IN reality we will do better, cause will see the turn card and can then decide (= information which has value). HJ will have $ 6.17 left. Our equity against his range is 49%. NOthing to win or loose there.
SO, YOU ARE RIGHT! (given my range assumptions)

board: Td7s5s
Hand Equity Wins Ties
KsQsJh8h 35.12% 3,897,180 41,220
55%6h:(TT,77,55,T7,As*s) 64.88% 7,217,700 41,220
Edit · Link · 2+2 · Deuces Cracked · LeggoPoker
Omaha Hi Simulation ?
600,000 trials (Randomized)
board: Td7s5s
Hand Equity Wins Ties
KsQsJh8h 27.22% 159,662 7,354
30%6h:(KK,QQ,T,ss,98,68,64) 23.33% 134,161 11,631
55%6h:(TT,77,55,T7,As*s) 49.45% 292,776 7,883
Edit · Link · 2+2 · Deuces Cracked · LeggoPoker
Omaha Hi Simulation ?
600,000 trials (Randomized)
board: Td7s5s
Hand Equity Wins Ties
KsQsJh8h 26.90% 157,683 7,435
30%6h:(KK,QQ,T,ss,98) 23.58% 135,707 11,598
55%6h:(TT,77,55,T7,As*s) 49.52% 293,261 7,750
Edit · Link · 2+2 · Deuces Cracked · LeggoPoker

I m not so sure about this 5carab, your arguments could be very valid. But then again, HJ does not call on the flop with 'random junk' after raise/calling preflop. And yes, we give away part of our winchance when we let a 3rd player in, but in return we also get more dollars in the pot. I m interested to see EV's of both plays.

You have a draw on the flop, so I do not like the 3b. Given the stack of the HJ and the money already committed by him he is not folding any decent draw against your 3b. I mean, he is not going to fold the nutflush draw (which if he would, would be a good reason to 3b). But he did call your cbet, so he has something. Just call the raise to increase the chance of him calling, giving you a better price to draw.

Why do you prefer x/c? x/c pretty much allways looks what it is, a non nut weak hand, with on this board never much equity to improve. If I am in villain shoes I bet T allways knowing this. Reversely, I do not like x/c because of this. But since you are a way better player then me, I must miss something! Please help me out? Thanks!
I allways lead in this spot, and leading any turn, why is this a worse option then x/c flop?

I play in these kind of games in Europe. You know one thing for sure if you wanna play from early position. It is going to be out of position for you throughout the hand, and multiway to the flop. So you do not want to build a pot. So limp a lot, and raise sometimes enough so you can play a big pot when necessary. The dynamics in such a game changes from time to time, which in turn has to make you change how to enter the pot. Sometimes I raise to prevent a bigger raise from someone in later position, making my price to see the flop cheaper. Sometimes I limp a premium hand to either come over the top if it looks like I can significantly thin the field and have an equity edge/ playability edge against the marked villain, or if too many callers and no 'thinning' option just call the raise. Sometimes raise small to induce a 3b so you can 4b.

I play tight from early position (cannot give you a %) cause my opponents will make mistakes anyway/do not adjust for tightness. But there is merit to loosen up, cause our opponents will make big mistakes on later streets that just getting to later streets more often has a huge pay of.

Thanks! Funny, I used PPT a lot, but had a blind spot for the rank button!

Thanks!

I fold pre. I bet flop, turn and river cause we rep a FH pretty good and have blockers to his FH.
As played, fold turn.

Thanks ZenFish, but this is not what I am looking for. I want to get a better idea of what hands a villain has when he raises first in and has a percentage of f.i. 18% for that according to PT. So in this case I want an overview of all hands + frequency which are the top 18% of all hands.

Yeah, good idea! Skype: august.wi

I did some sims: against a tight range 20%:(TT,88,44,T8,AA:cc,KK:cc) you have 50.55% equity for the hu pot, and for the 3-way pot you have more then 33%. If you take out T8 you go to around 45%. If you instead add weaker hands, you go slowly up in equity. For instance adding all T with cc gives 51% (20%:(TT,88,44,T8,AA:cc,KK:cc,T:cc))
His raise with 3 players left behind to act including you being big stack indicates a stronger range. Given the equities you cannot go wrong, but not win much either. So, do you want the variance? Do you need to show you put it in? Will there be better spots later on in the game?

I think equitywise getting it in on the flop is marginal plus or minus EV, depending on the range you give your opponent. But I think bet/folding on the flop would be a mistake. You need this hand in your bet/3bet range to widen the strong part of your flop bet range, in other words to protect yourself from being exploited on the flop by being raised by opponents on the flop more often then they should (because you fold too much if you would bet/fold these kind of hands).

Question: The way I understand it, the shove is not for value (we do not get called be worse), nor for bluff ( we do not make hands fold that beat us), but for protection and range, probably mostly range. We would bet with 97, by shoving w AA94 we widen our range. I think it is difficult to understand (for me at least) because this particular hand, having top over pair plus nut fldr, does not need protection and therefore does not mind to check both T and R to give room for opponent to bluff with the part of his range we already beat and do not get a call from by betting ourselves. Maybe he makes his flush on the river against our nutflush. SO the range play has to weight harder than the vacuum play? Or is the way I describe the vacuum play not true?

Good question, I have the same. The way I understand it, the shove is not for value (we do not get called be worse), nor for bluff ( we do not make hands fold that beat us), but for protection and range, probably mostly range. We would bet with 97, by shoving w AA94 we widen our range. I think it is difficult to understand (for me at least) because this particular hand, having top over pair plus nut fldr, does not need protection and therefore does not mind to check both T and R to give room for opponent to bluff with the part of his range we already beat and do not get a call from by betting ourselves.

I think we should not jam the flop. Against his getting it in range (all two pair, sets, fldr+extra) we are behind, and there are not many hands that beat us now which we can make him fold. These hands are AK** and T9**, but given the flop AT9 it will only be the AK hands without a Q, J, T or 9, which are not many.

Nobody talks about check raising the river, why? Is that such a bad option?

If I had the K-high flush, I would go for the check-raise. To balance that I need more hands in that check-raising range, like the Q-high flush and the K blocker and sometimes the Q blocker, when it is not likely he has the K-high flush.

Or do we think opponents just do not fold a low flush?