Luciaetta Ivey

You have already admitted to that there is nothing wrong with my view. Just now, after M Big Fishz posted a support of my opinion you posted :"Sure, when we don't have enough info we can fall back on our GTO-ish play".

This thread is about just that; doing sims in threads when we don't have enough info. 

I have no idea of why you now all of a sudden starts to talk about how often the circumstance of not having enough info is a reality in the threads I am referring too? Not that I agree to your claim that this does not happen very often though, because I DO think this is the reality very often. The thing is, that the answer of that debate has nothing to do with what we are discussing in this thread.

What is being discussed in this thread is the approach people take when doing sims in threads where they don´t have enough info.

P.s I changed nick to keep other members from berating me because of my nick. Apparently people had problems with me calling myself Luciaetta Ivey, I will continue to post in this thread as Luciaetta Ivey so that there will be no missunderstanding though. But only in this thread.

BigFiszh

It is impossible to create your range so that you are "immune" of getting too strong range on every river card. If you every hand try to bet a lot of air combos on turn just to make sure that you will have enough air on river on every runout, your range will often be too bluffheavy.

I do not know if I have understood the question correct, but if the board runout makes your range at river is "too strong", and you do not have enough bluffs in your range you should just be happy and bet your entire range and take down the pot every time. It does not matter that opponent will fold 100 percent of times.

I am not sure, but I believe this subject is being covered in the MOP book.

Sure, I can understand if someone misunderstood the OP, but to fail to understand my point after all the follow up posts I have made is unlikely, because I really think I have been pretty clear after OP. Here is my exact quote from one of the earliest posts: "Since our estimations are not even close of being reliable I am claiming that it is much better to focus on playing your own ranges as close as GTO as possible vs some opponents and to take unorthodox or explo lines vs other opponents to exploit." And when you create GTO ranges for yourselfe, you of course give GTO ranges for your  opponents.

About "mixing it up", my opinion is that GTO poker includes mixing your ranges up. For an example, you sometimes call with AA and you sometimes three bet them pre. When playing GTO poker, sometimes you raise A10 on a 6610 flushdraw flop, sometimes you do not (this is a subject for another thread though). The talk about "mixing" your ranges up was however just to show how difficult it is to "know" opponent´s ranges if not having a perfect read (which more often than not is the situation when people are doing sims in threads) 

Let us assume that OP writes that he one time has seen his opponent call an UG open with AA from the SB, what conclusion would you draw from that info? I claim this info is worthless. Sure, you could add a few AA combos here and there when creating this opponents´s preflop calling ranges in the thread, but I believe that it is only going to be very unreliable speculations. Maybe you should not even add any because you do not know why he called with AA that time. Maybe he called with AA against OP because a player he (unlike OP) perceived as a fish or squeeze happy was in the BB? Maybe he did not? And that was only one hand in his SB range that is unsure. Sure, to give him a GTO range will also be speculative since we do not know the exact GTO ranges, but I believe that we in threads often are closer of knowing the GTO range than the opponent´s actual true range.

About taking unorthodox lines, I have never claimed that this is included in GTO poker, my purpose with mentioning it, was to make people (those who choses to not play GTO) understand how easy it is for someone to make his opponent to create totally wrong lines based on totally wrong ranges. Just a small deviation from "standard play" would make the outcome from the sim he is running completely wrong. This means that those who do not know anything about GTO poker should sometimes deviate from "standard play" just to make their opponent create their lines based on wrong ranges. Also, what is "standard play?" That differs a lot too. Some players have no problems with calling two streets in position with a low flushdraw when turn card makes a pair on board, because they have a plan on bluffing if opponent check a blank river. Other players thinks that calling also turn with a flushdraw is too speculative because there is a pair on board. Similar vital reads are often missing in threads where the hands are being discussed and conclusions of sims being presented. Still I often see people deciding that "this line is correct is correct" and "that line sucks" etc.

So in short, yes we agree!

Learn2FoldEm and others, I have no idea why people seems to have so difficult to understand my point but I will try again. 

I believe that the outcomes from running sims are worthless when they are ran with not enough info about our opponent´s game. The difference in EV between two different lines is often so small that only one small missread about opponent´s range would show the wrong line to be the best one to take.

So, because of that reason, MY believe is that in different threads it often is more difficult to guess opponent´s actual range than to guess opponent´s GTO range. And when we give our opponent a GTO range we should also try to play GTO ourselfe. Please note that I am not claiming to know how "to play the perfect GTO poker" here.

Also, there is absolutely no need for some of the comments here, such as pretending that I am insinuating that I "know how to play perfect poker", or asking me to PM you "the GTO solution of poker". I do not know why you feel that you need to take that silly and unnecessary route? There are several books, videos, and theories about GTO poker to be studied by us, and I assume that you are not acting in a similar way against the authors of those? Have you for instance accused Matthew Janda of believing that he knows how to play "the perfect poker" when he is advising us to take a GTO line?

I believe that all the materials that is out there about GTO poker are not worthless and that we can assume that we DO have a good understanding about how to play as close to GTO as possible. If you guys disagree to this, I will not say that you are wrong because no one knows the answer of that question. It does not matter though, because this thread is about something else.

I do of course not claim to "know how to play GTO poker perfectly", but as the quote I already posted before, when presenting my view; "I am then of course assuming that we have a good understanding of how to play as close to GTO poker as possible."

P.s I have never claimed that we will not learn anything about doing sims without enough info. What I am saying is that the results are worthless, and that we probably would have learned more if we had used (what we believe are) GTO ranges instead. If I build a house without using the right material, the outcome will often not be that good, but I would still have learned something about how to build houses in the process of building the house.  I just believe that in many threads where there is not enough info for us to use when doing a sim, our guess about how a GTO range looks like is therefore more often closer to the truth than our guess about how our opponent´s actual range looks like.

I knew I would get shit when creating the thread because after all, it was me creating the thread. I believed that people would complain about my view being self-evident and that they would post stuff about thread being ridiculous because of it. Not in a million years did I believe that no members would agree with the logic in what I am discussing.

You say that you have not seen or heard about the berating and that seems VERY strange to me if you work as a moderator because it has happened in some of the biggest threads at RIO. I also have flagged the posts every time plus commented it in posts on my own. Moderators have even posted in those threads.

I am just mentioning this so that no one will get the totally wrong perception that the RIO moderators and owners have not known about what has been going on. Even RIO video producers have been talking shit for heavens sake. You now joining and saying that "it is not acceptable" is pretty weird since it HAS been going with RIO:s acceptance. It was not until this thread was created that moderators for the first time deleted abusive post directed against me.

The way those responsible for RIO has responded when I created this thread is pretty telling according to me.

Sure, I will not "beat a dead horse", and if no one post lies in the future I have no problems at all to put this thread to sleep now.

The reason why I in five minutes can draw the conclusion that Phil Galfond no longer is one of the top of the top players in the world is because he has had a 800 0000 hands long break even stretch last five years. 

I do not care if you believe that I am "Mr Thomas" or not, because it does not change anything. Mr Thomas has not posted anything that justifies abuse or insults against him either. He just shared an (in the RIO community) unpopular view that in reality also many agrees to. The thing is that those who agrees do not want to post their view about it because they know what would happen then. Same thing with my view about Galfond´s results, everybody who plays poker understands that my speculation about his results is totally legit and had it been another pokerplayer´s and not Galfond´s last five years of results that had been discussed most members would have agreed with my speculation. Or at least not claimed that my view was totally unfair. That is my opinion.

My goal with this thread was to make RIO act on what is going in on, but it is clear that what Jesse Peter posted is correct; "the moderators dont care what the users say to you, the users dont care what you say about your perceived ill treatment" We can therefore now put this thread to a rest.

midori "Feel free to tell us about your beliefs.  And of course, you have every right to share your view on something, regardless of how popular (or unpopular) it might be.  However, by doing so you are also opening yourself to criticism, objections, etc. against your view.  That's something you just have to deal with."

I of course have no problems with people disagreeing with me. That is the hole point with discussion forums, you discuss, debate, disagree and sometimes agree with each other members´s views and opinions. To personally berate and abuse a member is something completely different though, and that is what this thread is about. 

I am sorry, I do not find any reason to comment the other stuff that you just now posted because you only repeat the accusation that I have been insulting and abusing other members without presenting any posts showing this to be true.

P.S I have no problems with adding Odd Oddsen on that list, I created the list in like 5 minutes and I explained how I ranked the players. I did like everybody outside the RIO community do when ranking pokerplayers, I looked at last years results and ranked players accordingly. I also wrote in the post that I probably had forgotten some obvious names and I do not know Oddsen´s results, but if you say that they are that good, then of course he should be in the top ten. I would not be surprised if I made some other mistakes too. The purpose with the list though, was to show how I and most other pokerplayers do when we rank pokerplayers.

So I am a troll that am feeling hurt when I succeed with my goal? There is absolutely no logic behind what you are saying and I it is weird that you do not understand that.

In short, both your assumptions are totally wrong.

Yea, one time I posted "If you say so lol", and in another thread I wrote "fanboys" instead of "fans". Do you believe that I would have any difficulties finding other members with a worse history than that?

So this is proof of me insulting other members according to you? Well, I disagree. As a matter of a fact, I find it pretty amazing that I have not posted worse stuff than so after having been called the things I have been called.

I also find it very telling that you guys have to bring up such ridiculous stuff in an effort to try to justify your behavior.

Yes, you are correct about me hating lies, and I am telling you right now that I have not been trolling. I am just a person who strongly believes in my right to share my view of something even if it is an unpopular one, which is something I have done like two times. Had I been a "troll" you would of course have had a lot more than "yes, if you say so, lol" and "fanboys" to throw in my face. 

We all know that this bullshit is going on just because I had an unpopular view about Galfond´s last 5 years of results and it has nothing to do with me posting "sure if you say so, lol" It is just ridiculous and dishonest to pretend it has. That is also the reason why no one from RIO acts on it.

Summary:

I have been abused and berated many times by other members and even by people working for RIO.

Members first justified their abuse with claims that I have been insulting other members.

No one could show me one post where I have been insulting any other member though.

Therefore members changed their reason, and said that I have been "poking" other members.

I still do not know what "poking" I have done so that calling me an asshole and wishing me dead can be justified.

Members also justify their abuse with saying that they believe I am "Mr Thomas", but no one has been able to show an example of when "Mr Thomas" have been abusing any other member.

If I had done something wrong in this forum the moderators would have acted. The procedure to take when you see someone breaking the rules is to report him to the moderators so that the moderators can act on it. Not once have I been breaking any rules and not once have any of my posts been found "inappropriate", still you guys seems to think that you have the right to abuse me. 

So therefore I asked RIO to do something about what is going on, and today it is clear that they have chosed to do nothing. The only thing they have done is to delete a couple of abusive posts in this thread (it is of course not good for business to have a thread where a member complains about abuse filled with abusive posts). All other posts in other threads that have been even more abusive, have been okay according to RIO moderators.

It is now also clear that no moderator or other RIO employees/owners has found a reason to make an effort to stop the abuse with a public comment or introduction of some policies, which means that they agree to it.

So, congratulations guys! If you do not like another member or if you suspect that he is "poking" other members with an unpopular view of something, abuse him. According to RIO´s policies it is okay.

Now we can add "pussy" to the name calling. 

I have made my point and request and do not think that there is much more to add. It is now up to the managers of RIO if they are going to act or not.

My opinion is that the examples you just presented shows that I have done nothing to deserve being abused, not the opposite. But you disagree?

Ok, show me proof of me trolling then! You can not just decide that someone is trolling just because he shares one unpopular view and then think you have the right to abusive him.

Also, If I suspect that someone is trolling, should I then abuse him or should I report him to the moderators?

I have created one thread where we discussed theory in poker and one thread where I expressed my view about doing sims without enough info about your opponent. Besides that, I have dared to share a view that I believe that a breakeven result over a 800 000 hands big sample size is more than enough to assume that a player no longer is one of the best players in the highest games he plays.

And this is according to you a "revenge mission"?

In another thread Chael Sonnen just called me an asshole and now deleted it. He then accused me of being rude to other members instead, and when I challenged him to show me proof of his accusations, he refused. 

Pretty lame of you guys to make stuff up, only to justify the name calling.

This thread is not about if you like me or not, this thread is about me not thinking it is ok for you to call me bad stuff just because you do not like me or my view of something. This thread is also about trying to get RIO make a policy change so that this behavior will stop.

It is interesting that you guys first justify your behavior with claiming that I have been an asshole and then when you can not show one post where this has been true you accuse me of insulting other members, and when you can not find one post of me doing so, all of a sudden you justify your behavior by saying that I have been "poking" other members.

Now all of a sudden I have not insulted people etc? So why are people lying about it then? The answer is because they want to justify their behavior.

Now your point is that if members believe that I am "poking" others, so then it is ok to call me abusive stuff? If I am trolling or doing anything else wrong, should you not report me to the moderators instead of calling me be bad stuff and be abusive? Who forces you guys to read my posts or answer in the threads I am starting? No one! Aleksandra Bozic for intance, has begged for a block button so that she can block me, but still she joins every thread I create and berate me, why is that? 

If I do something wrong, you should report me and let the moderators handle it, never ever do you have the right to be abusive to another member just because you think he or she is "poking" someone.

I knew that this would going to happen and I repeat my question: show me the posts where I have been insulting people, if you can not, stop accusing me.

I challenge anyone to find one post from Mr Thomas account or my account where a we have called another member something bad. People are just making stuff up and not one of you can show me proof of you accusations.

You are justifying your behavior with lies.

So, you and some others speculate that I am Mr Thomas and because of that it is ok to be abusive against me? 

I see that you now edited your post and deleted another one. Before you called me an asshole, and now you call me rude, I challenge you to show me the posts where I have been so rude that I deserve to be called asshole from you.

Also, if any of you guys  now are going to accuse me of being an asshole or similar I am asking you to show me the posts where this has been true. Please do not throw around accusations without showing examples.

Can you please explain what you mean?

Chael Sonnen You are lying and I dare you to prove me wrong. Show me the posts where I have been an asshole and if you can not, quit the lying!

Edit: This post was meant to be a respond to Chale Sonnens accusation. A post he now has deleted.

Sure, I have never claimed anything else. We learn stuff in the process of doing sims and dissecting hands, I have even posted this myself in one or two posts in this thread.

I have several times already stated that we can learn a lot from reading posts and dissecting hands. I just believe that people would get even more out from it if they took a GTO approach though.

Also, If you will claim that it is more difficult to get it right when taking a GTO approach when creating ranges then I can not argue that you are wrong. Same as you can not prove me wrong if I claim the opposite.

I am just sharing my view that I am entitled to have without being called asshole and other names, and you are entitled to have your view.

I do not think we can get further than this in our discussion.

Thank you!

sgperfect "So the disagreement in the thread is simply that you suggest that we give opponents GTO ranges (no argument here), whilst others are acknowledging that this is not possible"

This is not correct. Our disagreement has not been about if it is possible to try to create close to GTO ranges or not. If someone would claim that the GTO ranges that we try to create are as of as the ranges we give our opponent based on unsuficient information, then I would not be able to claim othervice. This because no one knows how good we are at creating GTO ranges. 

I have no idea of what you are talking about? I am the one puttin people down!? Have you even read the posts? Listen, I do not care if you and others take me seriously or not, but I do care if you call med asshole and stuff. Who is forcing you to open a thread that I have created? 

I will flag your post now but I will as always assume that the moderators will not do anything about it, so therefore I am asking you, please just ignore my posts and threads in the future and do not call me asshole or similar again.