Ignition $2.50/$5: Hands Where I Saw the Turn

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Ignition $2.50/$5: Hands Where I Saw the Turn

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Tyler Forrester

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Ignition $2.50/$5: Hands Where I Saw the Turn

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Tyler Forrester

POSTED Jun 04, 2019

Tyler Forrester aka Gogol's Nose grabs hands where he saw the turn and loads them into the replayer for a deeper analysis.

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jsg2198 5 years, 9 months ago

Hey Tyler, thanks for the wonderful video. Quick question from a current 200NLZ player on ignition -- I noticed that you were using an equilibrium thought process in terms of generating bluffs (e.g. Q9s hand you noted you needed to find 40% bluffs to make villain indifferent).. however, due to the anonymity of the pool, against competent regulars should you want to choose your bluff:value ratio based on equilibrium strat, or based on population tendencies (because they are conceptually playing the population, and not you)? For example, if population underbluffs, shouldn't you in turn bluff more than equilibrium, because a competent villain knows population is under bluffing and he will likely be overfolding -- i.e. exploiting his exploit.

Tyler Forrester 5 years, 9 months ago

Thanks for the great question! I agree with you in theory that we should exploit player pool tendencies. However in practice, two things make GTO bluffing-style ratios appealing:

1. I often don't know how to exploit the player pool in a situation.

In some common spots, I know how the player pool plays, but in many situations, specific fold frequencies for the position, situation and board texture are unknown. In these spots, the best I can do is GTO, because it maximizes against unknown strategies.

2. I might be the only person in the player pool playing the line.

Remember my opponents can see holecards after 24 hours, so if I'm the only person playing a line in the player pool then I need to monitor my frequencies. Otherwise, if I'm always bluffing in situations or never bluffing that is what observant players will think the player pool does using the line. This is especially problematic if I try to always bluff using a weird line, after sometime the pool will swing from always fold to often call.

Jeff_ 5 years, 9 months ago

That's cheat to see what your opponents are folding.
86o was the most interesting hand I think. It shows how costly emotion can affect our game.

Last hand, do you ever consider shoving river? If so what hands/blockers you looking for? You've been talking about that topic in this video, if he overfold vs triple barrel but suddenly bet/call river way too often checking some nut hands make a lot of sense. Pio does it sometimes, it certainly doesn't want to be super capped and keep few strong hands in the range in order to raise river and not allow opponent to go massive with bluffs/value.

Tyler Forrester 5 years, 9 months ago

Hahaha, I know it's such a weird thing and kind of tilting when I see the crazy hero folds or bluffs that played perfectly against my hand.

Edit: On the last hand where I have 98 and am facing a river bet after checking turn on QJ786. I generally don't mind jamming here with some bluffs if his sizing indicates weakness or medium strength hands. In this particular spot though it's suicidal because based on sizing he often has two pair plus and those hands are very difficult to fold.

RunItTw1ce 5 years, 8 months ago

I was also thinking about bluff raising this river with 9x blocker for T9 or 95 etc for a straight and some 8x for two pair blocker. One thing I noticed though, that would make me not bluff this river, is BB stack size being around 60bb. I think this would indicate a more recreational player and least likely to bluff on this river for PSB. I would lean towards just folding the river because of the stack size and just assume this stack size or player is not bluffing enough with Ax, K9, KT etc and call more with Jx+ hands that unblock their bluffs. I think 98 blocks quite a few of villain's bluffs here, so maybe call with something like J2s or something that doesn't have a 9x or Tx in it for calling.

Zeranch 5 years, 9 months ago

Hey,
In your last video you mentioned that you dont open 3x from the BTN because people play the max exploit strategy against it, could you explain what that strategy is?

Tyler Forrester 5 years, 9 months ago

Without diving to deeply into the minutiae, most strategies advocated against the button on RIO were designed to beat 3x open raises, so the pros in the pool play very well against the strategy without adjustment.

Zeranch 5 years, 9 months ago

So for example:
(continue less obviously)
3betting more compared to the calling range
3betting more polar (less mixing on the bottom of value range)
are these correct?

Tyler Forrester 5 years, 9 months ago

I'd encourage you to look at Pokersnowies free defend against button range. It'll be a good starting point. Actually keeping the same 3-betting strategy will make more money because when button folds he loses 3 bbs as opposed to 2.5bbs. More generally against 3x we flat tighter. 3-bet frequency is dictated by opening raise percentage, so it's likely we should 3-bet tighter but it's not guaranteed as some players don't lower their open raise percentage. The composition of the 3-betting range is going to be based on fold to 3-bet and 4-bet numbers, so whether he raises to 2 or 3 is only a secondary factor.

RunItTw1ce 5 years, 8 months ago

Hi Tyler Forrester I tried to link to a HH post, but doesn't seem to want to put your name for notification. If you can take a look at the below link, it would be greatly appreciated.

https://www.runitonce.com/nlhe/live-1-3-straddled-multiway-pot/#/comment-275049

RunItTw1ce 5 years, 8 months ago

@35:53 you mentioned you don't know if K7o defend in BB mw is profitable or not. I had a similar spot in a tourney ($5k buyin) blinds 1500/3000+ BB ante 3k. I had about 48k in blinds (16bb) and was in the BB.

UTG+1 opened 6k, LJ calls, btn calls, hero BB Kh6h calls.
Question #1 given my short stack (16bb) is getting 8.5 : 1 worth it? Considering I am not really good odds to flop 2 pair, trips, or flush and top pair goes way down in value. I think I have lost quite a few tourneys with semi light defends as this one because of "pot odds" but I realize my equity goes way down MW.

Postflop I messed up where I donk lead a K72 flop, got called by LJ, turn K, and pot was already so big, I just jammed for around 2/3 PSB, but realize when I got called on the flop I am beat quite often.

Tyler Forrester 5 years, 8 months ago

With Kh6h, your flush draw will make it clearly profitable to play, because the 13% of the time you flop a flush draw, you will win slightly more the full pot. Once you include trips/two pair, its an easy call. Top pair is of course stackable here, though higher variance. Without ICM considerations, you are increasing your stack by 27K, when everyone folds and only losing 38K (10% equity when behind) when someone has a better hand.

It's never fun to lose a tournament, but I think in this spot you have too. It's no different than losing AKo vs QQ.

RunItTw1ce 5 years, 8 months ago

Thank you Tyler Forrester This hand with K6h has haunted me for some time now. I almost wanted to nit it up in tourneys, but then I think i'll end up min cashing a bit and not really final tabling. I don't play a lot of tourneys in general, just wasn't sure how this spot compares to cash games. Excellent feed back!

Wombat44 5 years, 4 months ago

Hi Tyler,

Great video, as always. I'd appreciate it if you could expand on a concept you mention at the tail end of the last hand (89cc) of the video. You said that you got off the hook because when villain bet pot, you lost $25, but if he had bet 2x pot, you would have lost $32. I consider myself a pretty advanced player, but I failed to follow your logic here. Some additional context and explanation would be much appreciated.

Tyler Forrester 5 years, 4 months ago

There's some assumptions here:
1. His value bets have 100% equity.
2. I call MDF.

When he bets 1x pot, I call 50% of the time, he makes a profit of .5 pot. If he bets 2x pot, I call 33% of the time and he makes a profit of .66 pot. Since .66 pot > .5 pot, he actually loses .16 pot by using the smaller sizing.

OMGIsildurrrrman12 5 years, 3 months ago

Hey, Tyler Forrester - I'm sure I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I really find these replayer videos from you very helpful. It seems like you mentioned little nuggets of wisdom from time to time that may be neglected during live-play due to time constraints, or that get neglected often anyway, by coaches in general, because they may appear to basic or self-evident. But it's always good to be reminded of those little things, like when you mentioned not check-raise bluffing with a certain draw on the flop (specific hand and time-stamp not necessary) or checking back an open ender IP because of how those actions with those hands in those spots may effect our EV on later streets. Or how you mentioned Bayes' theorem in relation to the likelihood of facing value vs bluffs, and how even just a couple of players way overbluffing can influence our overall bluff-catching frequencies. Overall, another very informative video!

I have a question that's not directly related to this video, but it is related to your poker theory knowledge: do you happen to have any heuristics on when it's "ok" to bluff with missed draws, specifically missed flush draws? I have seen it said that it's not good to bluff with missed flush draws because we block a portion of our opponent's folding range, but then I have also seen poker coaches (and even PIO) bluff with missed flush draws at certain times. I'm just a little bit confused on this, though I am blindly guessing that it has something to do with what we're trying to get to fold? Thanks, Tyler!

Tyler Forrester 5 years, 3 months ago

Thanks for the compliments and great commentary! I think bluffing with flush draws is an interesting proposition especially in solver poker, because the solver is often strong enough to make the flush draw 0 EV like any other draw. From a more practical perspective, you should be bluffing with flush draws in lines that you can't have other types of bluffs or where your opponent is unlikely to have flush draws based on action on previous streets (c/r c/c lines and the like).

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