Hey Zach, I notice the meta for opening in these games tends to hover between 2x - 2.5x yet you elect to open 3x. Why don't you subscribe to the minraise?
I open to 3x for several reasons. I will list them in no meaningful order.
1) It is what I am accustomed to and comfortable with
2) I have seen no compelling reasoning or data to suggest opening smaller is superior. I don't want to change my game just to follow trends.
3) Vs short stacks I would open smaller, but there weren't short stacks present. Nor was there rampant 3betting.
4) If people are accustomed to facing 2x and 2.5x they are likely to play worse vs 3x
5) Particularly in PLO having somebody 3bet you wide isnt near as problematic with the marginal portions of your range. They aren't pushing a large equity advantage.
K774 is about a 54 percentile hand. There are hands with similar or lower equity that have higher playabiltiy (equity realization) that I would open.
Also Zumba was SB who has a very high 3b%
Id open the btn with as6sjh2c which is 62 percentile hand; worse equity wise yet I'd open.
13:50 Table 1; I probably in game and in commentary believed I was PFR for some reason. I don't like my flop lead given he was PFR. I think this hand is a good candidate to c/r given it has nutty outs but its draw isn't that attractive to x/c.
Do you think its a good candidate to add to a limping range on button? Not trying to nitpick so sorry if it comes off that way just generally curious because it's a hand I might not want to raise with certain players in the blinds but I feel like a nit if I fold :) I know it doesn't have great playability at all so I'm wondering if you think limp/calling is going to be more than marginally > folding.
To be perfectly honest, I don't know. I have never done any work nor consideration of having a limping range 3 handed. I do limp HU so its not a far stretch to believe that limping 3way has merits. And If I did have a limping range this hand looks like a decent addition.
My initial thought is that its already hard to realize equity HU with weak hands and doing so 3 way would be tougher. Also, raising 3way is nice because most often we force the SB to fold a wide range given his postional disadvantage. We could exercise that postflop though if we limp.
Last consideration I come up with is that if multi tabling it would be fairly difficult to balance a limping, folding, and raising range from the btn.
That all said, creating a limping range with a hands like these as their main components could very well be > folding.
Hey Zach, great video!
One thing for the future though, and it might just be personal preference but I doubt it.. If you're going to make a PLO video, which is assume is what you are shooting for here, its obv alright to just add a NL table to fill up the gap, however I dont see the merit of going into depth into NL hands. No NL player is going to be watching this for the NL content, and no PLO player cares for the NL hands..
At least, thats what I think. I just cant imagine any Elite members looking for both in one video.
This video was intended and is mostly PLO. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think I discussed many NL hands. I did go into details on the 97s hand at the end but I think the concept I went over is actually more applicable to PLO than NL and I plan to make a video soley focused on protection bets. I personally enjoy watching vids with both games. That said, if others share your view I will make a point to skip over commenting on games other than the videos primary focus. Thanks for watching it.
Hi Zach ,
End of video. 97ss interesting spot!
How often vilain need to pick up bluff river to make his flat turn for balance > c/r turn for protection?
There is certainly value/protection to be had by him with 8x vs our sets and to a lesser degree our 2pr. We will sometimes have Tx for a GS or **:cc for a FD. I think our overall non 8x hands will have about 4 outs average (10% equity). I don't think getting us to fold ~10% equity is worth as much as a) picking off river bluffs and b) the benefit of strengthening his range on a board he rarely hits and will have a hard time defending heavy aggression. I think it also depends what he expects us to do on the turn with 2pr and sets; we often would be checking back those hands which further lowers the equity of our non-8x turn betting range and lessens value of protecting.
Additionally, I think we will play nearly perfect vs his c/r range given it is very hard for him to have a bluff here given we have 8x so often and he has it so seldom. Likewise I probably would check sets given I wouldn't want to b/f a set but am okay with it with 2pr.
Looking forward to that protection bet video! It's something that I struggled with in the past coming from a holdem background so I think it would help a lot of members. I'm still by no means a master at it so new thoughts are always cool.
Btw I somehow misclicked a flag on one of ur posts sorry about that please ignore! (Damn Ciroc lol)
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Hey Zach, I notice the meta for opening in these games tends to hover between 2x - 2.5x yet you elect to open 3x. Why don't you subscribe to the minraise?
I open to 3x for several reasons. I will list them in no meaningful order.
1) It is what I am accustomed to and comfortable with
2) I have seen no compelling reasoning or data to suggest opening smaller is superior. I don't want to change my game just to follow trends.
3) Vs short stacks I would open smaller, but there weren't short stacks present. Nor was there rampant 3betting.
4) If people are accustomed to facing 2x and 2.5x they are likely to play worse vs 3x
5) Particularly in PLO having somebody 3bet you wide isnt near as problematic with the marginal portions of your range. They aren't pushing a large equity advantage.
2:30 table 2 open fold Kh7h7x4x on button is that standard for you?
Also 13:50 table 1 you were not the pfr here you defended the bb vs BT and donked flop, do you still like your bet?
K774 is about a 54 percentile hand. There are hands with similar or lower equity that have higher playabiltiy (equity realization) that I would open.
Also Zumba was SB who has a very high 3b%
Id open the btn with as6sjh2c which is 62 percentile hand; worse equity wise yet I'd open.
13:50 Table 1; I probably in game and in commentary believed I was PFR for some reason. I don't like my flop lead given he was PFR. I think this hand is a good candidate to c/r given it has nutty outs but its draw isn't that attractive to x/c.
Do you think its a good candidate to add to a limping range on button? Not trying to nitpick so sorry if it comes off that way just generally curious because it's a hand I might not want to raise with certain players in the blinds but I feel like a nit if I fold :) I know it doesn't have great playability at all so I'm wondering if you think limp/calling is going to be more than marginally > folding.
To be perfectly honest, I don't know. I have never done any work nor consideration of having a limping range 3 handed. I do limp HU so its not a far stretch to believe that limping 3way has merits. And If I did have a limping range this hand looks like a decent addition.
My initial thought is that its already hard to realize equity HU with weak hands and doing so 3 way would be tougher. Also, raising 3way is nice because most often we force the SB to fold a wide range given his postional disadvantage. We could exercise that postflop though if we limp.
Last consideration I come up with is that if multi tabling it would be fairly difficult to balance a limping, folding, and raising range from the btn.
That all said, creating a limping range with a hands like these as their main components could very well be > folding.
Hey Zach, great video!
One thing for the future though, and it might just be personal preference but I doubt it.. If you're going to make a PLO video, which is assume is what you are shooting for here, its obv alright to just add a NL table to fill up the gap, however I dont see the merit of going into depth into NL hands. No NL player is going to be watching this for the NL content, and no PLO player cares for the NL hands..
At least, thats what I think. I just cant imagine any Elite members looking for both in one video.
This video was intended and is mostly PLO. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think I discussed many NL hands. I did go into details on the 97s hand at the end but I think the concept I went over is actually more applicable to PLO than NL and I plan to make a video soley focused on protection bets. I personally enjoy watching vids with both games. That said, if others share your view I will make a point to skip over commenting on games other than the videos primary focus. Thanks for watching it.
I play NLHE/PLO rotation games live all the time which isn't that uncommon of a structure afaik. I'm all for it but to each his own.
Hi Zach ,
End of video. 97ss interesting spot!
How often vilain need to pick up bluff river to make his flat turn for balance > c/r turn for protection?
There is certainly value/protection to be had by him with 8x vs our sets and to a lesser degree our 2pr. We will sometimes have Tx for a GS or **:cc for a FD. I think our overall non 8x hands will have about 4 outs average (10% equity). I don't think getting us to fold ~10% equity is worth as much as a) picking off river bluffs and b) the benefit of strengthening his range on a board he rarely hits and will have a hard time defending heavy aggression. I think it also depends what he expects us to do on the turn with 2pr and sets; we often would be checking back those hands which further lowers the equity of our non-8x turn betting range and lessens value of protecting.
Additionally, I think we will play nearly perfect vs his c/r range given it is very hard for him to have a bluff here given we have 8x so often and he has it so seldom. Likewise I probably would check sets given I wouldn't want to b/f a set but am okay with it with 2pr.
Looking forward to that protection bet video! It's something that I struggled with in the past coming from a holdem background so I think it would help a lot of members. I'm still by no means a master at it so new thoughts are always cool.
Btw I somehow misclicked a flag on one of ur posts sorry about that please ignore! (Damn Ciroc lol)
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