What Would You Do? (part 2)
Posted by Paul Atwal
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with the KK diamonds i picked the other combo for the opposite reasons e.g. when we block diamond villian has less bluffs, more showdown hands that want to check back and probably win. When we don't block the diamond he can have some more bluffs KQ,KT,K8 that bet for us and I guess most of his made hands will check back. Is there a flaw in my logic as it seems it's the opposite & why? Feel like in the BTN here i'm shoving non Ax busted draws, boats and 9x and checking back almost everything else, like even KdJd feels thin to shove it as btn
for a vid - would like to see OOP spots mainly facing a cold call from button or even co and then hero sb vs bb (cbet x/c & x/r). On the answers could be interesting to discuss adjustments vs player types e.g. low float %, high float % etc
ur logic gut, just cuz its oposite to coaches, doesnt mean its bad, can often hapen that coach had bad logic in the spot
im also for betting w/o Kd , cuz when u bet and get raised with Kd u have to fold assuming that villain is balanced raising, and u block his bluffs now, but w/o Kd u dont so u can more likely b/c it
but if villain bluffs especially w/o Kd then its opossite, but idk how many non diamond K he gets to R with
Blocking diamonds doesn't give him more bluffs though. Also, I still think KK can get another street of value (x/c river included), so I'm not necessarily just trying to showdown.
I don't think it makes much sense for IP to bluff Ax busted draws FWIW. Though I do agree KJ would likely be too thin. It's a spot where I expect him to be polarized when he bets.
I also agree with gaucan's sentiment. I've said it numerous times, but it's worth repeating, I am wrong and do change my mind all the time.
Lastly, I want to point out again (like I said in the video) that the difference in this exact example is marginal; I'm just trying to illustrate the idea in general (though you seem to disagree, which is entirely reasonable).
Edit: I will try to answer the other questions here tomorrow! I appreciate the patience.
In the last hand are we assuming we have already checked all three combos or is there still the option to cbet? Because If one was looking to construct a x/r range here wouldn't it make more sense to use some AA/KK combos for value and then sufficient bluffs, As they don't need nearly as much protection compared to JJ which benefits a lot more from cbetting flop imo. Also we get value from a wider range (QQ?/JJ).
thanks :)
We're assuming UTG is using a pure check strategy, i.e. cannot cb.
Nice glad to see a 2nd part to this,
Hand 1
Agree with everything nice analysis!
Hand 2
Another spot I agree with, and one thing to add to your analysis is that ♦'s really connected with IP players CBing range. IP will CB more BDFD's than oop will be calling, giving him a ton of combos's to stay aggressive on.
I like this allot Paul, great idea! would like to see these keep coming
Will continue later 1/2 way done... :D
But so far great stuff!
yeah agree i find this style of video really beneficial, Would like to see another part of this
Love these kinds of videos would like to see more of them! Can't think of a specific topic right now but I feel these definitely help me fully think spots through.
I'm sorry but I just watched part 1 of "what would you do" and I have a question on your button defend range vs BB 3B and that is what is your 4B range as it seems value heavy from the button call range you gave in the comments?
That is, what is your suggested Button 4B value to bluff ratio vs BB 3B?
(It appears your value range is JJ+,AK (40 combos) and bluff range 40% of A5s-A2s (only 6.4 combos) unless you add say some Ax offsuit, say A5o to A2o (say 30 to 35 combos) to give about 50:50 value to bluff).
This is really similar to Drachaon's question below, I think you'll find my reply relevant.
Not to imply that I don't have "bluffs" in my 4b range, because I certainly do; I just want to point out that there is a relatively drastic difference in how one should think of bluffs on earlier streets compared to nuts/air river scenarios. I would use a small mix of a variety of different hands that I think are either just below my the threshold of my calling range or have good blocker effects (anything from 96s, KJ, to A3s, etc). I prefer this to using a small portion of hands (as bluffs) 100% of the time.
Perhaps I worded my question poorly as your answer doesn't address what I meant to ask.
Assuming BB only shoves versus your Button 4B what proportion of your 4B's are calling the shove versus folding?
In hand 1 what is your assumed IP Calling range? Doesn't this vary quite a lot depending on Villain tendencies?
Villain has more Jx in his calling range
* If less likely to 3B UTG ("Nittier")
* if more likely to call UTG raise wider ("More fun player")
Think about CO RFI, has way more Jx than IP call. IP call is going to be narrower with less off suit Jx combos...
Also in allot of cases BTn will probably start to play a mix strat of thin value betting stuff like AJo, AJs, KJs.. I know I do anyway...
There will be a slight equity disadvantage for OOP, because of the shear amount of air in oop range.
My Pio sim using (for want of some degree of objectivity) Snowy ranges has OOP Cbetting 1/3 and checking 53%.
This contrasts with the choices Paul has (bet big and check 50% or bet small and check 30%).
Checking 50%+ seems to me more consistent with the amount of air in OOP range.
In other words Paul discusses how his CBet size "depends" but IMO checking percent also "depends".
Tried some more sims by varying IP range and I can ofc get Pio to recommend any of the three options (X, B 3/4, B 1/3) by making OOP indifferent appropriately.
I think DK answered this pretty well.
As for your comment about cbetting size/frequency, the two are certainly related (changing one will often change the other).
I disagree.
I don't think a condensed calling range necessarily means it has proportionally less Jx than the pre-flop raiser. Rather, that depends on calling range construction. My assertion is that calling range construction varies by player type and some player types calling range crush the PFR's range on J53r.
Further I suggest that a bet 3/4 OOP on a J53r is exploitable by an appropriately constructed calling range.
Sounds like your describing a loose passive player, start adding those off suit Jx you'll need to add allot more other hands into his range that will weaken IP equity advantage and still leave IP caller with a ever so slight equity advantage- none at all.
But at the end of day OOP will still have more Jx imo, because he should be opening hands like J9s, J8s, (this is up for arguments )
Has way less Jx in it ;D
Snowy wouldn't have AJo here, also snowy starts playing a mixed strat with AJs as well and has no off suit variant Jx either.....
I pio-ed this as well (yesterday) and it seemed to agree w/ Mr. Atwal from what I recollect/ interpreted from the software.
No, as I said above, with Snowy calling range, Pio CBets 1/3 and checks more than 50%.
Secondly, try a simple calling range of all broadway plus all pairs. And Pio checks something like 85%. Try a calling range that simply mimics the opening raiser's opening range minus a few weaker hands and it will crush the open raiser's range on almost any board. It is actually not that hard to turn position into a crushing advantage (especially if we know open raiser is overinterpreting pool stats).
I think there is so much variability in Villain calling ranges at 100NL and below that it is folly to overinterpret pool averages. IMO there is much more variability in calling approaches then say open raising ranges or 3B ranges.
If we have a solid read from lots of hands, sure. But the pool is too variable to overgeneralise on calling ranges especially across sites.
You speak at one point about cbetting with a high frequency with a smaller sizing. That strikes me as a little confusing. Surely if you're including lots of bluffs (necessitated by a higher frequency) then you ought to use a larger sizing, not smaller?
What you're saying only applies "cleanly" in a nuts/air vs bluff catcher scenario. OTF the terms "bluff/value" don't really work given almost everything has equity.
As a thought experiment, think about what you're saying and how it would apply to pre-flop ranges, and how what we do in practice differs from what the logic in your comment might suggest.
Thanks Paul - that's a good point and has helped me think more clearly about sizing.
Hi, great video again :)
I disagree with hand #1 and hand #3, but not because i disagree with the theory but I think our ranges are different. Im echoing IamIndifferent in my interest in your IP vs HJ calling range, because my own IP range retains an equity advantage on the J53 flop, and in fact its equity increases compared to no flop selected. If we are at a range disadvantage on the flop, we should check more often afaik so i picked answer A.
In hand #3, my BB vs BU 3betting range is stronger than my SB vs BU range, so I thought that I should be cbetting more from the BB. Ive constructed a linear SB range because im only 3betting, which means that my frequency should generally be higher than if I have the option of flatting as well. In the BB I can choose hands more selectively and only use those that benefit from being raised more than flatted, and since we are OOP with a good price to call I dont think its going to be nearly as high a frequency as the linear SB range. As well, being OOP we should have less "bluffing" hands in a polarized range compared to IP.
Great concept for a video btw. I'd like to see a lot more of these but I hope we get some vigorous discussion in chat!
+1K
Hi Paul, Thanks for ths video!
I was waiting for the 2nd part.
For your request, I'll suggest a spot for future vids -
Personally, I find it difficult to defend agains a c/r on semi-wet board.
For example -
BTN opens, BB calls.
flop Js 9d 2d.
BTN Cbet Ad9c, BB c/r.
BTN!?
How would the answer differ, given BTN holds different hands such as QsJs, Kd8d, Ad5d, JdTd, etc.
I think it´s a really nice format for a video. I would like to see something like this but a bit deeper into the hands:
a) Maybe same format but instead of asking "what would you do", maybe "what would your plan be". Always coachs and theory in general talk about having a plan at the beginning of the hand, so, even I think this would be very difficult, especially to get to a "correct answer" maybe we can get some spots where you can have some sort of a plan: e.g.: I would bet bet and check call on a blank or this is a hand I would like to be 3 barrelling very often. Etc.
b) On the same idea maybe we can go ahead on some hands, maybe the idea of trying to get a plan is too complicated, so maybe trying to get some "real hands" and pause the action before each decision from preflop to each street with some stats. Eg.: you have 9Js on the BU, CO steals xx% what would you do, 3bet, call, fold. You 3bet and you get called by the CO that folds 55%, he has a fold to cbet xx%, what would you do in xxx flop? Etc...
Thanks for the video.
Could you please describe more detailed the conception/strategy with small sizing FlopCbet, and high frequency? In which spots should we use this strategy instead of big sizing FlopCbet, smaller frequency strategy ("nuts/air" scenario). It would be great if you could provide some examples for each strategy and probably compare advantages/disadvantages of each one.
Also, If we use small sizing/high freq strategy on flop, what is our plan on Turn (in terms of sizings/frequencies)?
P.S. Thanks for the video).
Very nice videos paul!!! it would be a great if u can add some work on adjusting ranges against different types of players, IDK maybe something like how to adjust our calling range against someone who fold a lot to flop floats... also u can maybe explain some general concepts, like o what type of spots we preffer to cbet 1/3???
Big fan of these videos Paul. Concept, hand choice, complexity, explanations. I'm sure there are a lot of viewers (like me) watching these several times to get the most out of each point.
In terms of future video suggestions what about "what would you do with... AK" or choosing another hand that people regularly get stuck on - and have different scenarios such as 3 betting OOP and getting the dreaded J98 flop.
The other idea I'd love to see put into a video would be "what would you do.... Vs Villain"
Choose a hand such as 77 OOP on 824 rainbow and what to do vs different player types. Betting for value vs passive fish. Check calling versus maniacs etc.
great idea
awesome idea
HI Just wanted to say that I love these idea of videos with pop questions . It has been pretty insightfull for me and would appreciate to continue the series
same here,please video #3!
In the J53cc example isn't Kc better to barrel since it folds out more Jx. Arent all the club draws calling turn IP anyway on the Kd??
3:06 hand 1 i think if not a flush draw out id bet the 1/3rd but with it out im betting 1/2 so his back door draws dont have that itchiness to call but i guess both are fine.
you said u would have a more linear range then why is 54s one of the hands at 10:27 shoulnd't we change our range a little to another hand so its more linear hands to choose from? Id also go for acheck raise iwth the 7s as we dont block any flush or straight draw type hands hes gonna want to bet when we check along with over pairs. I think we get more value that way and if we check and he turns a broad way card our hands a little disguised. Great videos hope u keep them coming.
Not trying to fan-girl too hard, but these videos have EASILY had the biggest impact on my game to this point.
After playing the game for nearly 10 years, recently realizing just how poorly so, as I dig deeper into the RIO Essential Library, I have immediately seen improvements in my game.
This video's are literal "bae", and I am looking forward to a third installment, if it is possible.
Cheers, for the great discussion and subsequent video leading up to it.
GL everyone!
here goes me again, commenting on ooooold videos. Loving these btw!! For hand #4 you mentioned that it's somewhat reasonable to sometimes check 77 on this board. I was trying to get your thoughts on my thought process, if possible. I always thought that betting a hand like 77 is pretty much mandatory here, since we do not block any of the BTN's 9x that we want to build the pot against, (and they do have a lot of suited 9x in their 3bet calling range). What do you think?
Regarding hand 4, my thought process was that 54s wouldn't be an option since the previous hand you discussed the SB using a linear 3b strat, so I feel like 54s is far too wide to be 3betting OOP and this lead me to chose 77.
great, video, the kings combination through me off. May be some more of those curve balls
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