Value Betting and Bluffing in Position

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Value Betting and Bluffing in Position

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Tyler Forrester

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Value Betting and Bluffing in Position

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Tyler Forrester

POSTED Apr 12, 2016

Following up his previous video where he looked at hands where he was out of position, Tyler looks at the same situations only this time when he is in position.

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fluxrazza 8 years, 11 months ago

Title should be how not to bluff against recreational players! You gotta really sell it to them man, they simply were not buying at all this time.

Tyler Forrester 8 years, 11 months ago

Its all observation bias. I filtered for the biggest pots where I bluffed the river. That leads to a bunch of hands where my big bluffs were called. If we look at less biased hand sample we see that my opponents actually fold the river more often than they should. Which means I generally choose good places, these just happen to be not so great outcomes.

fluxrazza 8 years, 11 months ago

I was more referring to your sizing choice in a couple of spots. < Pot on the river and the recs will just mindlessly call their midpair or whatever. Bump it up to even ~110% pot and suddenly they notice they have a fold button.

Tyler Forrester 8 years, 11 months ago

I appreciate your opinion, but I need to note that it is an opinion.

I generally don't play games with my betsizing based on hand strength.

I find that the risk of being hand read perfectly to offset any small gain that betting 80% pot for value and 110% pot bluff against fish will gain.

cozaro 8 years, 11 months ago

One of the best videos i have seen here, i hope this open my mind to gear up my game. More videos like this one pls! U already number 1 video maker here for me in NL holdem.

Do you think those bluffs vs fishs is been lucrative, cause your stats is based on the whole field, i think if you filter somehow for only recreational players you may have a higher WTSD% betting river.

Thanks!

Tyler Forrester 8 years, 11 months ago

Thanks Cozaro for the kind words! I appreciate you taking the time to watch and comment on my videos : )

Its certainly possible that the recs have a higher WTSD. I'm not sure though that I can filter hm2 only for recreational situations. I may to tabulate it by hand. I'll have to get back to you on this.

Fishfeast 8 years, 11 months ago

21m- you say how you should clearly jam river here, would your entire value range be j10 for an all in bet? where does that leave your sets ?
i would be playing with a sizing of around pot here with a range of k9+, i wouldnt be comfortable creating a second sizing for only j10 when the same hand can be in bb range, albeit at a smaller frequency.

Tyler Forrester 8 years, 11 months ago

It would be a mistake to be your two pair that largely, I cover this in more detail in "Some hands revisited with piosolver"" This situation is analogous to the hand where I hero call 66 vs an allin bet on a Q7549 board.

Londonjonathan 8 years, 11 months ago

Enjoyed the Video. Not sure his call with A5 proved he was calling all his Aces; the 5 kicker was the nut blocker in the hand where you held K6.

Tyler Forrester 8 years, 11 months ago

Hi John,
The comment was referring to the flop call rather than the river. If I was to pick a river combo of Ax to call this might be near the top, but the flop call imo is very light (pio supports this).

kingLeon 8 years, 11 months ago

At 6:55 you say they should be folding 2/3 of the time to 2x pot bet. In what situations do you thinks that doesn't hold when we are button pfr on the river. How often do you think they occur and we should have a lot of profitable bluffs or villian calling frequency will be exploited?

Tyler Forrester 8 years, 10 months ago

When I don't have enough bluffs, they should be folding enough to make the EV of turning some marginal value hand into a bluff equal to checking rather than bluff with no showdown value.

FIVEbetbLUFF 8 years, 9 months ago

great video.
While rewatching this video, it reminded me of a spot that is tough and confuses me.
So lets say SB raises to 3bb and BB calls. Flop is 872cc and SB bet 4.5bb and BB calls. Turn 3 and SB bets 12bb and BB calls. River K..... Now there is 39bb in pot. Both players have a lot of missed draws (lots of missed clubs, 96/T9/65, and some gutshots). If SB bets, BB has lots of autofolds that have like no SD value (straight draws that missed) or bad blockers and little SD value (J4cc T5cc type hands).
How should this effect defending frequency relative to when it is mostly a more nutted range versus a bluffcatcher heavy range? Does BB need to call 1-a of his range or 1-a of his bluffcatchers? It feels complicated unless I am missing something. Thanks!

Tyler Forrester 8 years, 9 months ago

Hi FBB

It's bluffcatchers, but in this example even something as weak as 96 would have showdown value, which makes "bluffcatcher" a very broad term. A better example would be SB river checking range where he occasionally checks 54. Since 54 could never win, it is excluded in 1- a calc.

FIVEbetbLUFF 8 years, 9 months ago

thanks! that makes sense to me. Seen BB is IP, he wins regardless of bet or check if SB has 54 so 54 excluded in 1-a calc. Does SB need to defend 1-a when he checks here? I wud think he is so polar that maybe its okay if SB is always chk/folding as he he will be betting such a high frequency that BB cannot float to steal anyway

Tyler Forrester 8 years, 9 months ago

Hi FBB,

I would think that SB would need to call 1-A, (I haven't verified this), because BB still has hands as weak as 65 here, which should mean BB has enough bluffs and SB has enough equity with his checking ranges.

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