In AK93 hand, I'm a bit intrigued by your remark that you were considering folding the turn against his pot bet. The way I understand it is that, on the one hand we are almost at the top of our flop checking back range (after some KK/AA) with good blocker effects, but on the other hand, his cold calling pre + potting turn range from SB should be fairly strong, plus he might pot again on the river, thereby allowing himself to bluff quite a bit.
When you considered folding this, did it cross your mind that SB might not have enough bluffs, and you were likely facing a pot bet again on the river? Just to recap the math, if his strategy were to pot turn and river, he can pot the turn with a 4:5 value:bluff ratio, and if called, he should pot the river with a 4:2 (or 2:1) ratio, i.e. give up with 60% of his bluff. In retrospect, do you think he has less bluff than this on the turn?
If not, below is a follow-up question.
When he was implementing this strategy, it is important that he gives up with some bluff on the river if you call the turn. Do you think his actual hand was a better candidate for pot-pot bluff, or pot-and-done bluff? Of course, the implication of our PJ analysis is that he might have thought this is a profitable spot to bluff twice, but he can't do that with all his air. If you were in his shoes, what hands would you pot the turn and give up when called, and pot twice as a bluff?
I obviously don't speak for Phil, but the fact that he starts bluffing this hand OTT, indicates to me that his range can't support enough obvious bluffs given his value region. This makes sense as 60% is just a relative frequency that depends on the width of the value region. IMO this hand seems reasonable to start betting OTT as 9s blocks a portion of Phil's continuing range and the Ad blocks a portion of Phil's check-back, flop range that continues on turn (mainly AK).
For me, this hand plays better as a pot-and-done bluff, and especially on this river. Phil's range sim had him effectively improving to Q-full like 8% of the time, and bluffing once to target TT-QQ seems reasonable with our blocker effects OTT, but bluffing twice with zero equity to fold everything worse than a 2 by the river seems mighty expensive. I could obviously be wrong about that though, as my thoughts are lazily compiled from intuition. Would this be an ev calc to determine break-even amount of fold equity to justify betting twice?
When you considered folding this, did it cross your mind that SB might not have enough bluffs, and you were likely facing a pot bet again on the river?
I didn't have a ton of history with him at this point, and from my experience with the player pool, I expected the river pot and I expected to be behind his turn range. I think many players tend to bet again at a way higher frequency than normal once they pot, and I think many of them don't bluff like this often enough, especially on a board where many people in my spot are very likely to have Kx+.
I tanked on both streets and in the end I decided to call down because I felt obligated to. I actually expected it to be -EV, but I didn't want to leave myself to open to exploitation without stronger reads.
Just to recap the math, if his strategy were to pot turn and river, he can pot the turn with a 4:5 value:bluff ratio, and if called, he should pot the river with a 4:2 (or 2:1) ratio, i.e. give up with 60% of his bluff. In retrospect, do you think he has less bluff than this on the turn?
Clearly, AF has enough bluffs. Without running the math right now, I'd assume that people don't have a ton of obvious bluffs (as Synapse mentioned) because many of their flush draws will come with a King or other high pocket pair that would be likely to check turn.
On the other hand, he shouldn't have much of a value range. He can play AA and KK this way for value, but some would 3-bet pre. What he does with AK or K4 I'm less sure, but potting suggests he may not have those. He should have almost no 2x hands in his SB calling range. In fact, I assume the overwhelming majority of them would come with AA or KK anyways, so those are already accounted for. (Funny to say it this way, but my hand blocks his 2x hands!)
When he was implementing this strategy, it is important that he gives up with some bluff on the river if you call the turn. Do you think his actual hand was a better candidate for pot-pot bluff, or pot-and-done bluff?
I actually think (without knowing the true makeup of his range) that once he bets turn, this is a reasonably good river bluffing candidate.
As you said, he needs to lose 60% of his bluffs. A lot of his flush draw hands (and other bluffs, it appears) will contain a Queen, which becomes a pretty natural give-up in my opinion as the showdown value it gains is decent enough.
Good for Bluffing:
He blocks one Ace
He doesn't block any 6,5,4,3, or Jack.
Bad For Bluffing:
He blocks one Spade, one Ten
I think he should choose most of his two or more spade hands to give up with. Not blocking any of my A34x type hands (besides the one Ace) or 345x is good for him.
Great video Phil! I have to confess that I can't fully grasp whole information after first watch. Definitely will have to re-watch and take notes. Thank you.
Oh and thanks again for letting us know how ActionFreak has made so much $$ this year.
In spots like the 55A7T hand at 21:00 don't you think it's a leak for villain to be shoving the river unless we are calling way too much? Do you think it's better for him to start checking most/all of his 5xxx than it is to bet a smaller sizing? It feels weird to bet 33% pot with a hand like QQ on 55A7T that clearly has a lot of showdown value, but on the other hand, 5xxx+ is almost always the best hand when hero checks and would like to be able to value bet? Another issue is that most of the hands 5xxx+ is hoping to get called by (mostly Axxx) are the same hands villain is trying to fold out when he is bluffing. Maybe villain should be betting extremely small (because of the value:bluff ratio) with a range of 5xxx+ and complete air to avoid this issue? (edit: I didn't see the last part of you discussion about the hand before commenting).
I see a lot of good players shove rivers when SPR<1 with ranges that seem way too value heavy. It's really rare that you see people bet say 10%-50% pot when SPR is between 0,6-1 but it's very common when SPR>1.
In this particular spot, villain needs to either check back more of his 5x hands, turn almost every non 5x hand into a bluff, reduce his betsize (at least sometimes) or multiple of the above.
In general, there is an inherent advantage in being the one to go all-in. This is due to the fact that it takes the option to raise away from our opponent.
The reason this is the case is because any time a villain can value raise, he gets to add some bluffs (to make your call breakeven) and this allows him to increase his EV with his range.
Some people find that explanation confusing. To them I like to give an extreme example:
Let's say there is 5000 in stacks and you bet 4999. Now he only needs to call 4999 with his bluffcatchers, but when he has a big hand he gets to put in the last dollar ahead (we virtually never fold). He gets the option of taking that last dollar from us when he wants to, which increases his EV.
All that said, it doesn't mean you should choose all-in as your bet size "just because you can." It's just extra EV when you get the chance to remove some of your opponent's strategic options, which should tip the scales towards shoving anytime two sizings would otherwise be close in EV.
Hello, Phil, great series, could you dedicate one of the videos to paired boards? I am having trouble with designing my ranges on them. Especially defending oop.
Hi Phil, sorry for posting a question regarding a previous video. I asked you if QTJ2sss is a default fold for you from CO and you said yes but in another video you said (and i can't find the video so i can't check if it was maybe or certainly) you'd open J578ss from CO. Was it influenced by the fact that you had 2 and not 3 same color cards, was it for board coverage or was it the same case with QJT2, good only in certain situations?
J875 is a lot more connected than QJT2, despite the gap at the top. It will connect well with many flops, whereas QJT2 will completely miss 7-high flops and under.
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Cool vid, Phil.
In AK93 hand, I'm a bit intrigued by your remark that you were considering folding the turn against his pot bet. The way I understand it is that, on the one hand we are almost at the top of our flop checking back range (after some KK/AA) with good blocker effects, but on the other hand, his cold calling pre + potting turn range from SB should be fairly strong, plus he might pot again on the river, thereby allowing himself to bluff quite a bit.
When you considered folding this, did it cross your mind that SB might not have enough bluffs, and you were likely facing a pot bet again on the river? Just to recap the math, if his strategy were to pot turn and river, he can pot the turn with a 4:5 value:bluff ratio, and if called, he should pot the river with a 4:2 (or 2:1) ratio, i.e. give up with 60% of his bluff. In retrospect, do you think he has less bluff than this on the turn?
If not, below is a follow-up question.
When he was implementing this strategy, it is important that he gives up with some bluff on the river if you call the turn. Do you think his actual hand was a better candidate for pot-pot bluff, or pot-and-done bluff? Of course, the implication of our PJ analysis is that he might have thought this is a profitable spot to bluff twice, but he can't do that with all his air. If you were in his shoes, what hands would you pot the turn and give up when called, and pot twice as a bluff?
I hope my question makes sense.
-- midori
I obviously don't speak for Phil, but the fact that he starts bluffing this hand OTT, indicates to me that his range can't support enough obvious bluffs given his value region. This makes sense as 60% is just a relative frequency that depends on the width of the value region. IMO this hand seems reasonable to start betting OTT as 9s blocks a portion of Phil's continuing range and the Ad blocks a portion of Phil's check-back, flop range that continues on turn (mainly AK).
For me, this hand plays better as a pot-and-done bluff, and especially on this river. Phil's range sim had him effectively improving to Q-full like 8% of the time, and bluffing once to target TT-QQ seems reasonable with our blocker effects OTT, but bluffing twice with zero equity to fold everything worse than a 2 by the river seems mighty expensive. I could obviously be wrong about that though, as my thoughts are lazily compiled from intuition. Would this be an ev calc to determine break-even amount of fold equity to justify betting twice?
Good questions and comments, guys - as usual!
I didn't have a ton of history with him at this point, and from my experience with the player pool, I expected the river pot and I expected to be behind his turn range. I think many players tend to bet again at a way higher frequency than normal once they pot, and I think many of them don't bluff like this often enough, especially on a board where many people in my spot are very likely to have Kx+.
I tanked on both streets and in the end I decided to call down because I felt obligated to. I actually expected it to be -EV, but I didn't want to leave myself to open to exploitation without stronger reads.
Clearly, AF has enough bluffs. Without running the math right now, I'd assume that people don't have a ton of obvious bluffs (as Synapse mentioned) because many of their flush draws will come with a King or other high pocket pair that would be likely to check turn.
On the other hand, he shouldn't have much of a value range. He can play AA and KK this way for value, but some would 3-bet pre. What he does with AK or K4 I'm less sure, but potting suggests he may not have those. He should have almost no 2x hands in his SB calling range. In fact, I assume the overwhelming majority of them would come with AA or KK anyways, so those are already accounted for. (Funny to say it this way, but my hand blocks his 2x hands!)
I actually think (without knowing the true makeup of his range) that once he bets turn, this is a reasonably good river bluffing candidate.
As you said, he needs to lose 60% of his bluffs. A lot of his flush draw hands (and other bluffs, it appears) will contain a Queen, which becomes a pretty natural give-up in my opinion as the showdown value it gains is decent enough.
Good for Bluffing:
He blocks one Ace
He doesn't block any 6,5,4,3, or Jack.
Bad For Bluffing:
He blocks one Spade, one Ten
I think he should choose most of his two or more spade hands to give up with. Not blocking any of my A34x type hands (besides the one Ace) or 345x is good for him.
Great format. Good job
Great video Phil! I have to confess that I can't fully grasp whole information after first watch. Definitely will have to re-watch and take notes. Thank you.
Oh and thanks again for letting us know how ActionFreak has made so much $$ this year.
In spots like the 55A7T hand at 21:00 don't you think it's a leak for villain to be shoving the river unless we are calling way too much? Do you think it's better for him to start checking most/all of his 5xxx than it is to bet a smaller sizing? It feels weird to bet 33% pot with a hand like QQ on 55A7T that clearly has a lot of showdown value, but on the other hand, 5xxx+ is almost always the best hand when hero checks and would like to be able to value bet? Another issue is that most of the hands 5xxx+ is hoping to get called by (mostly Axxx) are the same hands villain is trying to fold out when he is bluffing. Maybe villain should be betting extremely small (because of the value:bluff ratio) with a range of 5xxx+ and complete air to avoid this issue? (edit: I didn't see the last part of you discussion about the hand before commenting).
I see a lot of good players shove rivers when SPR<1 with ranges that seem way too value heavy. It's really rare that you see people bet say 10%-50% pot when SPR is between 0,6-1 but it's very common when SPR>1.
In this particular spot, villain needs to either check back more of his 5x hands, turn almost every non 5x hand into a bluff, reduce his betsize (at least sometimes) or multiple of the above.
In general, there is an inherent advantage in being the one to go all-in. This is due to the fact that it takes the option to raise away from our opponent.
The reason this is the case is because any time a villain can value raise, he gets to add some bluffs (to make your call breakeven) and this allows him to increase his EV with his range.
Some people find that explanation confusing. To them I like to give an extreme example:
Let's say there is 5000 in stacks and you bet 4999. Now he only needs to call 4999 with his bluffcatchers, but when he has a big hand he gets to put in the last dollar ahead (we virtually never fold). He gets the option of taking that last dollar from us when he wants to, which increases his EV.
All that said, it doesn't mean you should choose all-in as your bet size "just because you can." It's just extra EV when you get the chance to remove some of your opponent's strategic options, which should tip the scales towards shoving anytime two sizings would otherwise be close in EV.
Hello, Phil, great series, could you dedicate one of the videos to paired boards? I am having trouble with designing my ranges on them. Especially defending oop.
I wish someone else would make a video on paired boards! I haven't quite figured them out well enough to cover them in depth.
I will add this to a list I keep with video ideas, but I can't promise you anything soon. Thank you for the suggestion!
Hi Phil, sorry for posting a question regarding a previous video. I asked you if QTJ2sss is a default fold for you from CO and you said yes but in another video you said (and i can't find the video so i can't check if it was maybe or certainly) you'd open J578ss from CO. Was it influenced by the fact that you had 2 and not 3 same color cards, was it for board coverage or was it the same case with QJT2, good only in certain situations?
J875 is a lot more connected than QJT2, despite the gap at the top. It will connect well with many flops, whereas QJT2 will completely miss 7-high flops and under.
I do slightly prefer J875 to QJT2. Whether or not each get opened from the CO depends on game conditions though.
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