$5/$10: All VPIP'd Hands
Posted by Tyler Forrester
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Great video, Tyler! Can we get a part 2?
2:50 if you bet turn are you polarizing and going %75 pot and bigger?
Do you ever bet jx?
12:00 do you have a flat range from the sb at 5-10 and bigger?
Thanks!
Thanks Soundspeed! Given the positive response, I will shoot a part 2.
Yes, I'd go around 75% of pot. The small bet is mainly focused on protection which is minimal consideration on A42J. Jx is checked, because protection isn't very important here.
Yes I do some flatting from SB. It's really important to establish a donking range if you do, so it's definitely a challenging spot.
Also 2:50 on A52r-Jhh board if BB comes out and B125 turn and b75 the river how likely are we to ever fold top pair? My mind is torn from I checked back flop, so I must call turn and river, but the pool under bluffs. Where if I bet the flop small, now I feel the pot is more manageable and the ranges are more face up, maybe not on 5/10 but lower stakes where they under XR. Wizard is folding AQo-A8o about 17% of the time. wizard link Feels like I'm burning a lot of money in this spot playing X-C-C but feels wrong at the same time to play X-C-F.
Also SoundSpeed you can see the turn strategy here on wizard polarizing to 10% medium size (50-75%) and OB 20% (125-175%).
Also Tyler Forrester on the river I'm surprised to see AX, mainly A9-A2s folding about 1/3 of the time when you take a X-X- line and face a river OB.
For the most part pool has been overbluffing these nodes over the last 4-5 years, so calldowns with top pair have been good. If we are playing a bot, then the calldowns are neutral, so it's really only against a nitty player where we should be folding.
@Turn Play -- I'd just simplify to 90% pot here. Wizard is obviously finding 3-4 different lines that could be valuable, but that's a lot of very small range play and I think it has questionable accuracy given the number of lines and the small range sizes.
@River XX|XX|B -- We really should have a lot of Ax here so we can get away with folding to overbet without losing money against bluffs. That's really all the solver is saying. Solver just calls MDFs in these spots, so we have too many Ax, we just fold some of them.
6:40 you mentioned you over limp A3s vs CO limp because you don't want the blinds to 3bet you off your equity. What I find to be more true is that if we over limp, especially in a full ring live environment that one of the players behind us is just going to ISO bigger than what we would have ISO because of the multiple limpers. However, if we ISO they are likely to just call the ISO and not 3bet very often.
There is a MDA exploit about RFI 3bb on the button rather than 2.5 because it generates less 3bets and more FE vs the blinds. Wouldn't isolating the limper be the same concept? If we ISO 3-4bb that would be better than facing a 5-7bb ISO vs one of the players behind us.
I usually only ISO around 15-16% of hands because I find these hands can either call a 3bet or have enough robust equity postflop to play well MW if BB and limper call. Other hands like JTo or KXs I don't mind over limping and just folding if someone wakes up behind me with a hand. Others might recommend vs a single limper to ISO 20-30% of hands, but it seems to be very volatile in my experience.
You said you might you might do a future video on this over limping vs Isolating concept. I would love to see an entire series on this actually because it's the bread and butter vs recs.
I think this spot has been basically punted for many years do to how easy it is to beat the fish. There is the possibility for a lot more complication where we limp reraise some hands and also establish and isoing range. The blinds tend to play pretty poorly here against competent opposition, because the orthodox plays are too loose to take advantage of the recreational players mistakes.
31min HU where player is 3betting 40% of hands reminds of Mathew Marinelli approach. He said he played 3B of F from every position on the mechanics of poker podcast. His logic was recs play poorly in 3 bet pots, so we want to play as many 3 bet pots against them as possible where they are going to eventually over fold one of the streets of play.
33min when opponent is opening 3.5bb on the button K5o. What do you think about this approach where off suit hands benefit from the extra FE preflop, so they tend to go larger, then suited hands don't mind calling 3bets, so they use more 2.5x size. I have a feeling the button in this hand uses a lot of MDA exploits based on the couple of hands we saw.
It's a major mistake headsup, because you can't 3-bet every defending hand from the big blind without suffering a big EV loss against a competent response. So any the strategy needs to have a calling component. As ranges get tightered and we get less of discount -- 3-bet only makes sense because very few hands benefit from the calls.
Button is very likely going hard on the MDA exploit route. Obviously very lucrative if you know how he's playing.
Hey Tyler, I enjoy your thought process and explanations. Like many 'semi-professional' (or whatever label I am) I become victim to chart memorization in some spots and your 66 analysis helps break through that leak/poor thought process in marginal spots.
I would also enjoy a part 2.
Thanks Oback2, really appreciate your comment. I am really happy I could be helpful!
Hey Tyler nice vid as always, personally I prefer you doing commentary over recorded live play since it gives more "flow" of how you approach the game & table dynamic and leave the database to certain formations/lines review.
Thanks MX, I appreciate the feedback.
02:52 you mentioned facing a XR it will be close to a breakeven call. However, generally I feel that delayed XR node is quite underbluffed since people's first instinct is to probe turn big to take down the pot -- and like you mentioned in the above comments - it leads to overbluffed at times for the probing node.
When we have ATo w Th or even like AQo w Qh - I feel we could exploitatively give up and defend with no heart combos. (Of course given the XR sizing supposed to be pretty big).
Curious on your thoughts, thanks!
Given the RTA problems on ignition, I expect the typical reg to pretty close to GTO on these nodes.
Actually the Th can be better because we have more equity when we hit two pair (no flushes on two pair nodes) so we have to be careful that analysis.
Nice point -- didn't really think about that!
05:05 would surely love to see a vid regarding how to play vs a limp IP, especially when to play limp-call and when to limp-back raise vs different player types!
I'll think about it. It's pretty niche.
11:40 you said the extra money is coming from one of the 3 situations. I think overfold/overbluffed is pretty straightforward -- but how do you find out if the villain is over-payoff?
Overpay-off is something like 80% of the recreational players at microstakes, so it's a pretty common player type. We just don't talk about it much.
How about midstake regs -- is that any stats or patterns we can use to justify some preflop marginal calls? Thanks!
Ignition is hard pool right now. Traditionally, it's the players over-fold on the lines where they aren't betting, because they put too much value in their betting lines and don't slowplay enough.
21:00 -- interesting talk regarding playing SB flats pre -- curious would you play flats yourself when stacks are much deeper? say 150 or 200BB+ deep?
You can, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it. The trick is to have a donking range that makes sense.
Hey Tyler,
An overlimp series where you discuss differences between overlimp the BTN and the SB would be great, there is very little content on this topic.
Thanks
Thanks Gluteo! I appreciate the comment and the feedback.
Tyler,
Always enjoy your videos. I found the 77 river spot at ~25:00 to be a very interesting explanation of the incentive of your nutted hands and how to best get the most money in the pot. The small bet looking to reraise (or induce) is nice because it also protects your block bet range as well.
Thanks Tyler.
Thanks 777!
Minute 22
which offsuit Ace do you think he can have?
I think most people wouldn't call offsuit Ace from the sb
It’s the chance he’s a recreational. I am not 100 percent on the pro read.
wouldn't that be another reason to raise?
If he's a rec he's gonna have some Ax off but he's not gonna 3b bluff you enough, if he's a pro he's not gonna have Ax off theoretically
I wouldn't feel that comfortable foldign to 3-bet if he was rec, because he can raise the same hand. Basically, I'm winning 3 big blinds sometimes against two pair and sets and losing 10 big blinds when I am bluffed or alternatively losing 27bbs when I'm behind. It feels like I need to get called very often by 2p+ to make the losses against bluffs or QJo offset the gains.
A video on the overlimp is needed imo, great idea!
Thanks Luminol! I appreciate the idea.
Hey Tyler great video once again man thank you!
Thanks Truepower!
The Ace wheel wheel boards generally I tend to play passively, and it’s annoying when we c bet and end up getting check raised. So many combos of handsomely made that favour the bb and sb
Yeah solver really picks up on the wheel boards not being as advantageous to IP as a typical board.
With the limp behind … is it profitable sometimes to have some stronger holdings to limp behind knowing there’s a player in the blinds who will most likely isolate? To back raise
Yes, you can do things like this. It's under-explored but I think decent exploit against certain pros who make too strong of assumptiosn about limping ranges.
It’s not something I’ve done in practice a ton because I’m usually just isolating myself
Really interesting runout here …
I would maybe assume that vs this small bet on this river, a 7 is likely good, back door hearts I think would be maybe betting a bigger size, maybe villain can have some jx as a bluff but again would villain be beating so small with jx? I’m unsure
It's more how often does he call 2p vs how often does he 3-bet bluff or we accidently pay off a flush or QJ
Nice call!
Really easy against some sort of max exploit bot.
3:10
I don't understand how the hero's Th (AsTh) correlates with the frequency of the opponent's bluffs. Can you explain the logic?
Hey Tyler, missed this video from a while back. For limping behind on BTN do you have a good idea of which hands you will opt to limp here? Is it mainly hands that want to see the flop but are slightly too weak to ISO? Presumably it is hands that play well multiway too, so KTo for example won't make the range?
Also I'm curious as the to what extent you would attempt to balance this range? You mentioned you might overlimp a strong hand here so that you can limp raise. My feeling is that you don't really need to balance it that well, for 2 reasons:
1. The original raiser will limp some premium hands that limp raise, so there is already one player who is uncapped and with a raise frequency
2. The blinds are not incentivised to raise wide here as the original rec limper will call way too frequently vs the raise anyway, so ISOing a weak hand here will lose money
I haven't put the solver on this question, so my answer is likely to be too simple. The main range should be hands that happen be strong enough to play multiway and can either safely fold or call a raise, but play poorly against a 3-bet due to SPR. The solver is going to add some balance 3-bets into the range so it's substantially more complicated than the other school strategies.
By default do you attempt to add the strong limp-raising hands here for balance? For the moment I am just playing a very simple face up range of hands that want to limp, then only if a player behind begins to ISO very frequently do I start to add those strong limp-raising hands.
For this board you mentioned that its different in HU compared to 6max, HU you bet small, 6max you bet big. Is it simply a product of wider ranges meaning BTN has more 3x which want protection? Or is there more to it than that?
It's a product of pairs having more value headsup so AK2 8 J8 has no value in 6-max, but some value headsup so it makes more sense to protection bet, because we need to protect our equity a more.
You raised an interesting point here with regards to the SB not getting much value these days on this type of board because most good players know that this type of board is set-heavy for the SB, so the SB will often struggle to get value. Does this mean you only play 3bet or fold here? If there was a recreational player in the BB, would you then revert to adding in a flatting range too? Presumably the EV of the rec in the BB is still sufficient (for most recs) to warrant a flatting range here, despite the issue you mentioned (plus being capped on certain boards)?
It's really an argument for creating a donking range.
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