$5/$10 Ignition: Seeing The Flop
Posted by Tyler Forrester
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Hey Tyler, I learned a lot ! Top level content ..
1:50
A2s hand
So smart to do halfpot more than a very small one here, making call by rec player and generate fold better ax in reg range, you don’t say it in your video, you do it on purpose ?
Also, I saw only a few amount of monkey sim, and big bet flop as OR are not used a lot multi-way, you say you need protection but your hand is very vulnerable. If a diamond comes you have loosed 90% of the time when you are called.
So, do you think X on most boards, is a good stratégie multi-way against pros ? Especially playing more than 150deep.
AK hand
11:00
Do you think bet small is not better even with rec player ? 200 deeps you obviously cant take all chips of rec player With your hand. By betting big flop, You isolate yourself agaisnt top range of two other vilains. Of course it’s because the rec ?
Might not be a big ev loss, but do you think going for 1/4 or 1/3 for overall 90% of board can be a good strategie ?
Especially in a pool where IP deviate a lot from monker sim , and bet too aggressively.
As rule of thumb logic every monotone board better for caller. Here as well because he can have more flushes than anyone else.
To me seems like we should be checking pretty often or betting small because our nut hand AA for example can become ''garbage'' quite easily. As well when we pile big bets we will isolate against flushes only. If dynamic goes as UTG betting thinly for protection I guess BB have incentive to raise more often as a bluff and value.Which is of course not gonna happen
Really good questions, Yolan!
On multiway pots, a nash equilibrium is established by two players playing a strategy such that the 3rd player cannot deviate and gain more value. It's a non-unique equilibrium which means that everytime any player changes strategy, the equilbrium strategy for us as well. This is a big problem, because Monker assumes everyone is playing Monker which is always false.
So long story short, I'm using old-schooler strategies that have been time tested against recreationals and not spending too much time worrying about what would happen if I ran into two poker bots (which probably 3-bet or fold anyhow, because it's an easier solid strategy for a computer).
Very excited to see a new video of Tyler at this point in time
Thanks Allianz, I'm excited your excited!
2nd hand why you going overbet turn? Seems like you raising flop because you think IP player overcbetting it which is pretty solid; As in gto(or vs low cbet strategy) monnotone are x/r pretty not often; but if villain cbetting too much we get to raise a lot hands which we would call otherwise (sets; 2 pairs, more flushes)
Maybe betting normal size is better to keep his range wider?
Basically it's my default turn sizing here. My range is polarized, so I want to make it easy to play for stacks. Maybe in this particular spot a smaller bet would be a little better, but the heuristic is solid.
Just as an aside, maybe the overbet has more of an effect in practice, but theoretically, he's supposed to call the 3/4 pot bet like 57% and this one like 48%, so it shouldn't change his range too much.
When you ovb on the turn , don’t you think Vilain has a close decision with Ah ? Only 12-14% equity vs flush, and maybe a lot of vilain would think it’s an under bluffed spot. Good result for your bluffs of course. But it seems his range is really really strong OTR when he call OTT.
Maybe I’m out of line here .
You said in your vid you prefered to shove because he has all the sets, but does he want to call set agaisnt your ovb turn here ?
You also said that you never want to bluff Ah because it blocks too much of his folding range, but Ah blocks much more his calling range, can you expect vilain to fold weaker flush here on anonymous pool ?
Cheers.
Great video as always. Thanks for the replayer review. Helps to hear more hand by hand in depth analyses.
At 17:20 the pro cold calls a 3bet from the blind with 88 200bb eff. How do you feel about having a 4bet or fold rng only from the blind and including hands like this and aqo type hands in the 4bet/fold rng?
Thanks Soundspeed!
Generally, I think its good, but in this spot the rec is really bad and really wide, so having a flatting range is smart. It wouldn't necessarily be smart against a reg, but the recreational plays so bad postflop that lots of different types of hands will turn a profit.
Hey, Tyler Forrester - That was a fun video, and also informative. What a great combination! But here's just an example of the simple things that I can learn from you, even while you teach more advanced concepts that I am not yet at the point of understanding. The second to last hand with the K8ss on 9hJd9s, flop goes check, check. Turn, A of s, you lead with an overbet. My first—and admittedly amateurish—thought was something like, "Yikes, I don't know if I like leading into that A when IP checks back a lot of aces there." But then within 5 seconds your thinking makes sense and I realize that I was simply a few levels behind you, as is most often the case. Then I feel silly when I realize that my turn bluffing range in that spot consisted of approximately nothing, but now I understand things a little bit better and can continue to improve at a faster rate than my most frequent opposition. Thanks, Tyler!
Thanks OMGIsildurr, appreciate the love!
Tyler Forrester just wonder, Tyler do you prefer a lead for OB in these spots or do you sometimes go for XR on this specific turn as the villain is going to be expected to be betting this card a high % of the time
Theoritically, you should try both options and it varies between opponents, most players are clear leads or clear checks. Very few make you truly indifferent between the two actions.
Very nice video!
Awesome Zache stoked you enjoyed it!
Like in the darkness
Thanks Bingo!
great video love the 1 table format keep more like this coming
Will do BendieBold! Love that you love it.
Tyler you are the man.
Thanks Khalil!
As always a very likable video!
On 19:18 You are talking about bluffing spade rivers.
I was wondering do you think it be over-bluffing if we did with this hand ?
Like we also have some QJ,J9 type hands with a spade and things like this that maybe are better. I like it though and maybe it would be a good spot to overbluff a bit as I think IP has more flushes than OOP since OOP x/r flop's some with the flushes and also 3bets pre some Axss combinations and stuff.
We have to mix with the draws. If we always bluff with a spade then we could be exploited by him calling non-spade Kx and if we always bluff without a spade we could be exploited by him calling all X spade hands. It's all about frequency rather than exact cards here.
Very clear Tyler I didn't consider that element it makes sense thanks for the insight!
Hi Tyler, again another great video, I think the clairvoyant HH review is pure gold.
I like how you explain things in the video and in the thread, so I’m going to take advantage of that :P
The very first hand A2hh
There is a thread here
Where OP ask whether low suited aces are profitable at the micros. I got 250k hands DB and argue that for me, they aren’t or at least very very marginal that he can pass up the opportunity.
You mentioned that we can look up into our DB but it is very difficult to assess the profitabily due to many factors.
Can you tell me what you think about my comment there?
Always regarding the A2hh hand
Does that monotone flop Qd Ad 7d favors you? BB doesn’t have AA and QQ but his range, assuming he is a fish, contains a lot more flopped flush than yours.
This spot confuses me a lot especially at my stakes where many times the flop is 3+way and ranges are wider. Yes, wider range means less strong made hands, but those hands have a lot of equity against our actual hand.
As played, let’s assume BB called your bet, is an offsuit 9, BB checks, what that would be your play?
@ 11,30 you talked about equilibrium in multiway pots
How monker can really improve your understading in the game?
I recall an old CR video where a GTO developer demonstrated how misleading are equilibrium 3+way.
IIRC if 2 players play nash and the other one doesn’t, the players who played nash lose. So theoretically, the players who changes his strategy will see an increase of his EV.
Given this fact, how monker is going to be useful? I mean, tables start with at least one fish and the battle to get his money is fierce, so I expect multiway pots where the two regs try to win the chips. Well, even preflop this should pose a problem. Maybe more 3bets, 4bets and squeezes are deployed, in order to take advantage of the fish.
@ 15 JJ - You mentioned villain was 3betting 45% of the times
When you download clairvoyant hands, do the id of the players changes everytime?
Because it is one thing to know for sure that a player, with unique id, 3bet that much, but if not, how can be sure that the stats are correct or somewhat correct?
Stats can be misleading on this site? If yes, where’s the point in using them?
@ 19,30 AKo
Isn’t your 3bet too small in general? Do you have multiple sizes? If the answer is yes, care to elaborate a bit further?
@ 28 TT
Villain folded 44 to your half pot bet on 65Jr flop and you said he should have called. Well, I’m folding 100% of the times but you are pretty deep so I guess that’s the reason. 100BBs deep is still a call?
forCarlotta Great questions!
This is empirical rather than solver based but over 3 million hands at 2/4, low suited Aces were roughly breakeven opens from Lowjack. What this means practically is on tough tables these hands were likely -EV and on weak tables the hands were profitable.
On AdQd7d with A2s, I'd usually be checking the turns. It's too early on the flop to worry about flushes, because flushes are flopped less than 5% of the time between both players. With A2s, it depends a little bit on the recreational player, the more passive the rec, the more betting turn is appealing, because he can c/c with flush draws and second pair (putting me on a flush draw).
Anecdotally everytime I've tried to use a monker range, it's performed poorly for me. I think people are looking for preflop heuristics and monker ranges have the appeal of being solid against complex strategies. The trouble with the ranges are that as you point out deviations by any player at the table likely negates the equilibrium and additionally there is some approximation error from the way monkersolver buckets turns and rivers. Lots of people think about Monker solver ranges, so I think it's important to know them.
On the aggressive 3-better, generally I'd agree it's hard to know precise ranges, but when some is 5 out of10 3-bets from cutoff or has shown down J5s and has a preflop 3-bet of over 20%, it's not hard to figure out that his range is very very wide. It's more harder to know more specific things like whether the region is 12% or 14%.
AKo, I think I'm a dinosaur here, but the sizes I've used for years still make money. I don't see any reason to get super finnicky and move them bigger, because some players advocate the strategy.
On the ideas of playing a hand like 44 preflop is to defend on some board textures where you have backdoor draws. This is clearly a board where a 3,4,8 or 2 will allow you to call a turn continuation bet. This shoudl be enough equity to call turn unless your opponent is very barrel happy.
This sentence is the most helpful, it highlights how nitty and scared I am. It's time to fix this issues.
Ty a lot for your time Tyler
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