I like videos of bluffs, particularly something like a checkraise bluff rather than a barrel, and this did not disappoint.
I agree the bluff with the combo draw where the guy checked the flop and bet 1.5xpot OTT was just awful. When someone overbets into a small pot, whatever they have, it is rare that they are folding to a x/r.
I'm definitely sure that say c-r a gutshot here is bad, but having an occasional bluff with the highest equity straight-flush draw (I don't flat QJs and KJs much), can never be that bad. Over-time folks learn that people never bluff raise and adjust by just folding T6s here and J8dd gives me the best chance to win if he's not of the that type. Assuming I don't get jammed on here much, the c-r with J8dd is essentially free. My math has him stacking river roughly 1/2 the time I hit, I am +17 dollars here assuming he always calls. Compare that to something like KJ where he'd need to fold 60% of the time.
This was one of the most interesting concepts you have covered. I enjoyed seeing you cover a wide rng of these turn xr spots.
At 3:00 you were talking about the merit of 3bet vs call pre with AA. You were saying that calling when short or vs a short stack is better as we don't put 100bb at risk but deeper 3betting makes more sense. My thought was it doesn't matter which line we take when deep so long as we maximize ev vs our particular opponent and that risking getting stacked is part of "slowplaying" so long as that line maximizes profit. I guess I don't fully understand, but are you saying we should be 3betting deep as a form of protection to reduce getting stacked because we let opponent see a flop with his full rng?
16:25 seems a good spot to lead as well. Is overbet lead reasonable here? There were a few other spots where the turn paired the middle card. My understanding is we also get some leads in these spots as well.
22:00 this raise was interesting. We have some showdown value so is this strictly a semibluff or are you getting value here as well with pr of 7s? Is this one of those dual purpose value/bluff raises?
39:30 you talked a bit about how barreling the river on a lot of these runouts is not going to work much. Indeed it seemed you gave up on most rivers in this video. Given the fact we block a lot of our opponents fold rng, do you rarely fire the river overall in these spots? It's sort of a one and done turn bluff?
@ 3:00 with flatting AA -- basically if the spr gets over a certain number AA is going to be a bluff-catcher on most boards to the final bet, so we general want with AA an spr that allows us to stack most to all boards. At 100bbs, this requires 4-betting, but at 30-40bbs, the spr will be so small that there is no downside to flatting.
16:25 -- Any hand that is a candidate for a c-r is a candidate for an overbet bluff. The 54 hand would be very viable here as an overbet as well.
22:00 -- K7hh here is a semibluff focused on attacking Ax combos (which should be value region here). It also has some bluffcatcher properties so could be put into bluff-catching lines. The key here is that K7hh has really big equity against Ax one pair combos, so the raise is really very inexpensive.
39:30 -- I try to finish rivers at GTO frequencies, but the high equity draws give up should generally be the default because they block the auto folds. It would be a lower equity regions that get checkraised that would be finished (because you guarantee yourself a little fold equity from the missed draw region) .
Thanks for the great responses Tyler! I appreciate how thorough you are when answering our questions.
As related to the AA hand, do you have any hand histories, replayer stuff or theory where you could go over some ultra deep spots and compare and contrast those spots to 100bb or less? Playing very deep doesn't happen a lot I think for many of us but the differences are enough that it would be interesting to see the strat changes pre and post in case we end up in that situation.
Tyler Forrester is like Linuslove finding those 1% bluff raise frequencies ;-) I was curious what hands actually bluff this spot and it appears to be hands that block some sets or have straight draws incase opponent has a set and you can redraw? Not too sure of the logic...
It’s more that lots of hands are roughly equal here so if you think the player will overfold any them will do. It gets really easy here to undercall after check back.
Cool video this has interesting open my appetite made me look up other situations. Now think it would be interesting to see a follow up for this in 3bet pots would be interesting to see how you think about them and how you are thinking about exploits.
In the video after turn XR mostly giving up the river unless hero improved. Didn't seem to improve almost ever :-( Glad you showed the data on not following through on the river with bluffs once they call turn XR. Is this mostly true for turn play as well after a flop XR? Where when we do have value and XR mostly just want to play for entire stacks given the lack of folds on future streets once XR is called.
A lot of the check raises you didn't like were the combo draws like AT on QJ48dd and J8d on T469dd. Should we just not care about getting blown off our equity? If we do XC these combo draws instead of XR, would you advocate donk betting river if we brick?
This stuff changes over time, but it's not a well studied node in PIO so turn is usually under-called compared to PIO which means river is over-called. I think playing big pots with big hands makes sense.
On the combo-draw hands, it's pretty rare to get jammed on this situations and I often have very little equity with both hands when jammed on, because the jamming range is going to be very flush heavy and both hands have little equity against those ranges.
PIO really doesn't donk these spots -- I'm never quite clear on solver logic, but I think a combination of 1) the IP player still has bigger range advantage when draw completes (we fold some draws on turn), 2) We don't need protection bets, and 3) We don't have many 0 EV hands on river that could bluff to force MDF type call-down frequencies.
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I like videos of bluffs, particularly something like a checkraise bluff rather than a barrel, and this did not disappoint.
I agree the bluff with the combo draw where the guy checked the flop and bet 1.5xpot OTT was just awful. When someone overbets into a small pot, whatever they have, it is rare that they are folding to a x/r.
Hi Betgo, I appreciate the love!
I'm definitely sure that say c-r a gutshot here is bad, but having an occasional bluff with the highest equity straight-flush draw (I don't flat QJs and KJs much), can never be that bad. Over-time folks learn that people never bluff raise and adjust by just folding T6s here and J8dd gives me the best chance to win if he's not of the that type. Assuming I don't get jammed on here much, the c-r with J8dd is essentially free. My math has him stacking river roughly 1/2 the time I hit, I am +17 dollars here assuming he always calls. Compare that to something like KJ where he'd need to fold 60% of the time.
This was one of the most interesting concepts you have covered. I enjoyed seeing you cover a wide rng of these turn xr spots.
At 3:00 you were talking about the merit of 3bet vs call pre with AA. You were saying that calling when short or vs a short stack is better as we don't put 100bb at risk but deeper 3betting makes more sense. My thought was it doesn't matter which line we take when deep so long as we maximize ev vs our particular opponent and that risking getting stacked is part of "slowplaying" so long as that line maximizes profit. I guess I don't fully understand, but are you saying we should be 3betting deep as a form of protection to reduce getting stacked because we let opponent see a flop with his full rng?
16:25 seems a good spot to lead as well. Is overbet lead reasonable here? There were a few other spots where the turn paired the middle card. My understanding is we also get some leads in these spots as well.
22:00 this raise was interesting. We have some showdown value so is this strictly a semibluff or are you getting value here as well with pr of 7s? Is this one of those dual purpose value/bluff raises?
39:30 you talked a bit about how barreling the river on a lot of these runouts is not going to work much. Indeed it seemed you gave up on most rivers in this video. Given the fact we block a lot of our opponents fold rng, do you rarely fire the river overall in these spots? It's sort of a one and done turn bluff?
Awesome video! Thanks Tyler.
Thanks Soundspeed! You ask the best questions.
@ 3:00 with flatting AA -- basically if the spr gets over a certain number AA is going to be a bluff-catcher on most boards to the final bet, so we general want with AA an spr that allows us to stack most to all boards. At 100bbs, this requires 4-betting, but at 30-40bbs, the spr will be so small that there is no downside to flatting.
16:25 -- Any hand that is a candidate for a c-r is a candidate for an overbet bluff. The 54 hand would be very viable here as an overbet as well.
22:00 -- K7hh here is a semibluff focused on attacking Ax combos (which should be value region here). It also has some bluffcatcher properties so could be put into bluff-catching lines. The key here is that K7hh has really big equity against Ax one pair combos, so the raise is really very inexpensive.
39:30 -- I try to finish rivers at GTO frequencies, but the high equity draws give up should generally be the default because they block the auto folds. It would be a lower equity regions that get checkraised that would be finished (because you guarantee yourself a little fold equity from the missed draw region) .
Thanks for the great responses Tyler! I appreciate how thorough you are when answering our questions.
As related to the AA hand, do you have any hand histories, replayer stuff or theory where you could go over some ultra deep spots and compare and contrast those spots to 100bb or less? Playing very deep doesn't happen a lot I think for many of us but the differences are enough that it would be interesting to see the strat changes pre and post in case we end up in that situation.
Thanks!
Tyler Forrester is like Linuslove finding those 1% bluff raise frequencies ;-) I was curious what hands actually bluff this spot and it appears to be hands that block some sets or have straight draws incase opponent has a set and you can redraw? Not too sure of the logic...
It’s more that lots of hands are roughly equal here so if you think the player will overfold any them will do. It gets really easy here to undercall after check back.
Cool video this has interesting open my appetite made me look up other situations. Now think it would be interesting to see a follow up for this in 3bet pots would be interesting to see how you think about them and how you are thinking about exploits.
Thanks for the content.
Thanks man! I appreciate the love and the feedback.
In the video after turn XR mostly giving up the river unless hero improved. Didn't seem to improve almost ever :-( Glad you showed the data on not following through on the river with bluffs once they call turn XR. Is this mostly true for turn play as well after a flop XR? Where when we do have value and XR mostly just want to play for entire stacks given the lack of folds on future streets once XR is called.
A lot of the check raises you didn't like were the combo draws like AT on QJ48dd and J8d on T469dd. Should we just not care about getting blown off our equity? If we do XC these combo draws instead of XR, would you advocate donk betting river if we brick?
This stuff changes over time, but it's not a well studied node in PIO so turn is usually under-called compared to PIO which means river is over-called. I think playing big pots with big hands makes sense.
On the combo-draw hands, it's pretty rare to get jammed on this situations and I often have very little equity with both hands when jammed on, because the jamming range is going to be very flush heavy and both hands have little equity against those ranges.
PIO really doesn't donk these spots -- I'm never quite clear on solver logic, but I think a combination of 1) the IP player still has bigger range advantage when draw completes (we fold some draws on turn), 2) We don't need protection bets, and 3) We don't have many 0 EV hands on river that could bluff to force MDF type call-down frequencies.
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