19:30 with KT triple barrel is there any data on bluffing vs short stacks being more effective or less effective? Maybe we just fire 3 as long as there are enough missed draws available where opponents hand is going to be weaker on avg? On the inverse we bluff catch more often with 2nd pair+ as long as there are plenty of missed draws.
I'm not sure, I do know generally here that this type of bluff the solver considers to be roughly 0 value. It looks like from GTO wizards perspective, it's worth about .05 bbs in this spot. I think given how most recs play that this bluff is fine/good.
Tyler Forrester in this anonymous pool any time the board is two tone and we don't face a XR on flop or turn, if the river doesn't complete a flush, do you think its possible to just triple entire range here as auto profit? Unless villain wakes up with 2 pair I assume we can just turn 8x & Jx into a bluff as well? I imagine TPWK is going to have a hard time holding on. Of course this assumes villain doesn't know we are tripling this wide. What are your thoughts on this?
I don't think the data supports bluffing 8x or Jx here. The calling frequencies in the anonymous pool are very close to GTO on average, so I would suspect that betting Jx or 8x here is actually a pretty large mistake, losing around 9bb a hand.
Jx and 8x both have huge amounts of showdown value on these nodes due to the 8x,3hXh,KhXh,AhXh turn calls.
20min with A-high paired board only being 27% weak. 2x pot being over bluffed 40% weak. Against 2x pot we need to defend 33% of our range based on MDF. You said this would be an easy call, but wouldn't' this still be a fold given its Ace high paired board? If they are only bluffing 27% here.
Is A-H paired AAX or just any ace high board that is paired?
This board actually isn't included in the data, but T44 A 2 is. It's clear there is a bulge of bluffs around middle trips because of the lack of 4s,5s,6s,7s,8s in the opening ranges.
Thanks Oback! I'd say 3-bet pots are pretty different due to the SRP being so much shallower, which doesn't allow for the same range of sizings on the river and the narrower ranges making the bluffs much more standardized. Definitely a great idea for a future video!
Vote for this video as well. Turn and river barrels in 3BP. In these SRP I have a hard time finding these low equity bluffs like KTo with no pair or draw on the turn. Feels like if we are betting this hand, then the heuristic is just to bet all our air on the turn king high or worse? Then I assume in 3BP where range is more narrow, we don't find these hands? Or we find them more because we are more polar IP? Feels like a lot of BBX or BBB bluffs with pure air needs to be added to my game. Too focused on equity driven strategies.
Based on this part of the data, you are not alone! Looks like most people miss the low/zero equity bluffs that can bluff rivers that complete high straight draws. That might not necessarily be a mistake though, if your opponents call down too light then it might be preferential to bluff only high equity hands.
do you think this general theme holds true for 3b pots facing triple barrels as well?
+1 for a similar video on 3BPs (or any other similar river scenario)
Like you said Tyler Forrester, there is less scope to look into bet sizing, but I'm sure that there are important patterns across board textures when it comes to bluff frequency.
Hello Tyler, really good video! I think these H2N insights are really helpful.
Can I ask whether these board textures on the left of the picture are all referring to the board texture by the river? Some specify that, but others don't, and I know you can get filters for flop textures too.
Looks like the general pattern amongst this data is that if the 2-broadway region connects well with the board, then river bluffing frequency is low, and if it doesn't then bluffing frequency is high. I always assumed some pattern like this would exist, but it appears to be more extreme than I had imagined, very cool to see the data like this!
Thanks Matt! I really appreciate your excellent comments, they are always insightfula and valuable.
These are all flop textures. Trying to combine flop, turn and river is combinatorially very very large and the sample sizes would be quite small. There's still likely some sample size issues in the some of the situations which are biasing the results in some spots. It's really valuable to able to understand bluffing by board texture as well as betsize.
think a lot of these hands as well comes down to knowing your opponents capabilities.
we block Kx here what other barrels here would make sense given our opponents line? mind you if were folding here too much our opponents can exploit that as well
My understanding of this spot is that we have two ways to be exploited: Overcalling and Overfolding. On a paired 3-flush board calling top pair too much is likely to be a major mistake against an exploitative opponent, because K6s here is quite weak. The correct approach is to add more slowplays into these lines.
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Excellent video Tyler Forrester
19:30 with KT triple barrel is there any data on bluffing vs short stacks being more effective or less effective? Maybe we just fire 3 as long as there are enough missed draws available where opponents hand is going to be weaker on avg? On the inverse we bluff catch more often with 2nd pair+ as long as there are plenty of missed draws.
I'm not sure, I do know generally here that this type of bluff the solver considers to be roughly 0 value. It looks like from GTO wizards perspective, it's worth about .05 bbs in this spot. I think given how most recs play that this bluff is fine/good.
Tyler Forrester in this anonymous pool any time the board is two tone and we don't face a XR on flop or turn, if the river doesn't complete a flush, do you think its possible to just triple entire range here as auto profit? Unless villain wakes up with 2 pair I assume we can just turn 8x & Jx into a bluff as well? I imagine TPWK is going to have a hard time holding on. Of course this assumes villain doesn't know we are tripling this wide. What are your thoughts on this?
I don't think the data supports bluffing 8x or Jx here. The calling frequencies in the anonymous pool are very close to GTO on average, so I would suspect that betting Jx or 8x here is actually a pretty large mistake, losing around 9bb a hand.
Jx and 8x both have huge amounts of showdown value on these nodes due to the 8x,3hXh,KhXh,AhXh turn calls.
20min with A-high paired board only being 27% weak. 2x pot being over bluffed 40% weak. Against 2x pot we need to defend 33% of our range based on MDF. You said this would be an easy call, but wouldn't' this still be a fold given its Ace high paired board? If they are only bluffing 27% here.
Is A-H paired AAX or just any ace high board that is paired?
Just AAx
This board actually isn't included in the data, but T44 A 2 is. It's clear there is a bulge of bluffs around middle trips because of the lack of 4s,5s,6s,7s,8s in the opening ranges.
Excellent video Tyler! Thanks for sharing this data. Quite a bit to take in.
Thanks Soundspeed, really stoked you found value in the video.
Tyler,
Very nice video. Your videos are always very informative, and you explain every concept in a way that makes it easy for everyone to understand.
Thanks
Thanks Trip Sevens, I appreciate the comment and the compliments.
Hey Tyler great topic wonderful video thank you
Thanks TruePower!
great stuff as always Tyler - best content on RIO! do you think this general theme holds true for 3b pots facing triple barrels as well?
Thanks Oback! I'd say 3-bet pots are pretty different due to the SRP being so much shallower, which doesn't allow for the same range of sizings on the river and the narrower ranges making the bluffs much more standardized. Definitely a great idea for a future video!
Vote for this video as well. Turn and river barrels in 3BP. In these SRP I have a hard time finding these low equity bluffs like KTo with no pair or draw on the turn. Feels like if we are betting this hand, then the heuristic is just to bet all our air on the turn king high or worse? Then I assume in 3BP where range is more narrow, we don't find these hands? Or we find them more because we are more polar IP? Feels like a lot of BBX or BBB bluffs with pure air needs to be added to my game. Too focused on equity driven strategies.
RunItTw1ce It won't be next video, but I'll keep this in mind for the future.
Based on this part of the data, you are not alone! Looks like most people miss the low/zero equity bluffs that can bluff rivers that complete high straight draws. That might not necessarily be a mistake though, if your opponents call down too light then it might be preferential to bluff only high equity hands.
+1 for a similar video on 3BPs (or any other similar river scenario)
Like you said Tyler Forrester, there is less scope to look into bet sizing, but I'm sure that there are important patterns across board textures when it comes to bluff frequency.
matlittle The boards you referencing all have straights possible on the flop, so they would refer to flops like AKJ, KJ9, QJ8, JT9.
thanks, and I agree on the future video idea
Hello Tyler, really good video! I think these H2N insights are really helpful.
Can I ask whether these board textures on the left of the picture are all referring to the board texture by the river? Some specify that, but others don't, and I know you can get filters for flop textures too.
Looks like the general pattern amongst this data is that if the 2-broadway region connects well with the board, then river bluffing frequency is low, and if it doesn't then bluffing frequency is high. I always assumed some pattern like this would exist, but it appears to be more extreme than I had imagined, very cool to see the data like this!
Thanks Matt! I really appreciate your excellent comments, they are always insightfula and valuable.
These are all flop textures. Trying to combine flop, turn and river is combinatorially very very large and the sample sizes would be quite small. There's still likely some sample size issues in the some of the situations which are biasing the results in some spots. It's really valuable to able to understand bluffing by board texture as well as betsize.
think a lot of these hands as well comes down to knowing your opponents capabilities.
we block Kx here what other barrels here would make sense given our opponents line? mind you if were folding here too much our opponents can exploit that as well
My understanding of this spot is that we have two ways to be exploited: Overcalling and Overfolding. On a paired 3-flush board calling top pair too much is likely to be a major mistake against an exploitative opponent, because K6s here is quite weak. The correct approach is to add more slowplays into these lines.
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