Great discussion @9:30 mark on whether to choose a more simplified flop cbetting strategy vs. a split strategy. Does playing in an anonymous pool impact your choice between the two? Or is this decision just based on the degree of difficulty to implement?
Everyone focuses on anonymous nature of the games, but for example over the last 200K hands, the big bet on the flop, the correct exploit is to literally play raise/fold on the flop (folding everything except two pair+ and draws) (Range is too strong to call one pair, which flips strategy to raise/fold). If everybody adopts an unbalanced strategy then it doesn't really matter if it's anonymous or not.
On a less absurd note, if you play these games every day -- no one is really that anonymous. Players are just known by "the guy who opens to 2.5 and likes to bet 1/3rd on the flop a lot -- followed by lots 3/4 pot size bets" or "guy who opens to 3x and likes to check/fold his air if he misses", etc.
If you can correctly implement the big bet strategy with the right number of bluffs along with small bet, you'll see an EV boost -- no matter what pool does, but truthfully this sort of correct implementation seems to beyond the capability of what a typical player can do in a maximum of 15 seconds. It requires a ton of work to get 10% frequency ranges right in most situations because we tend to lose the fractional bluffs, which are critical component of strategy.
Tyler Forrester I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions. Your exploitative adjustments to the pools tendencies to miss apply GTO concepts are really top notch. Thanks!
3:35 I understand we should call bottom pair here to defend our rng. However these spots are always interesting to me. Are we calling down, are we hoping he checks and we can get to showdown, are we hoping he checks and we bluff river? I always wonder what exactly we are hoping for or what exactly we are looking to do.
Same hand, after xr flop should our opponent then have blocked turn and check evaluate river?
21:00 can we ever xr this hand on the turn as a bluff?
Thanks SoundSpeed! I always appreciate your questions.
3:35 -- I think generally calling small raises here with any pair make sense for two main reasons 1) It doesn't make us a look like a nit, so he won't start bluffing more. 2) It's hard to design a range that makes bottom pair -EV as a call. Even if we only have EV on the A or 3, we hit those hands 11% of the time and both outs are likely reasonably clean, so I think the implied odds make this very close. And if they have less implied odds, we get more showdown value against his bluffs which improves the value of the 3.
I'd always showdown on this board texture (actually basically all) because the bluffs don't get really pulled from bottom pair here -- more from J,K and weak ace-high. If we get to showdown bottom pair will win between 20-30% of the time which require a really big overfold from OOP to make it bluffable.
Yeah AJ is going to be squarely a bluff-catcher on the river in a 3-street game and never really ahead of range (much less calling range) on this run out -- so he should be checking and evaluating.
With 8h8c on Th9d6h3h, it'd never be a bluff, just pure protection with a nice equity component. I personally avoid these plays because I'm not sure I'm folding much better and guarantee max loss against JJ+. PIO likely adds them in small quantities to boost the EV of a 9x call here and lower the value of calling 7x7h, but more pragmatically, unless we know he likes to bet call 7x7h, 5h5x and bet/ fold 9x we should avoid this sort of play.
Messed around a bit with flatting pairs in the sb, think I like bet/fold out of the sb, but I sometimes don’t mind flatting 22-66 in the sb maybe flop a set. Problem is we face a squeeze a lot from the bb or when we miss flop big sad.
It's actually pretty clear that played well, it's important to ahve a flatting range from the small blind. However lots of players do not play it so well and miss too much value with their 2p+ combos being OOP.
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Great discussion @9:30 mark on whether to choose a more simplified flop cbetting strategy vs. a split strategy. Does playing in an anonymous pool impact your choice between the two? Or is this decision just based on the degree of difficulty to implement?
Everyone focuses on anonymous nature of the games, but for example over the last 200K hands, the big bet on the flop, the correct exploit is to literally play raise/fold on the flop (folding everything except two pair+ and draws) (Range is too strong to call one pair, which flips strategy to raise/fold). If everybody adopts an unbalanced strategy then it doesn't really matter if it's anonymous or not.
On a less absurd note, if you play these games every day -- no one is really that anonymous. Players are just known by "the guy who opens to 2.5 and likes to bet 1/3rd on the flop a lot -- followed by lots 3/4 pot size bets" or "guy who opens to 3x and likes to check/fold his air if he misses", etc.
If you can correctly implement the big bet strategy with the right number of bluffs along with small bet, you'll see an EV boost -- no matter what pool does, but truthfully this sort of correct implementation seems to beyond the capability of what a typical player can do in a maximum of 15 seconds. It requires a ton of work to get 10% frequency ranges right in most situations because we tend to lose the fractional bluffs, which are critical component of strategy.
Tyler Forrester I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions. Your exploitative adjustments to the pools tendencies to miss apply GTO concepts are really top notch. Thanks!
Great explanations as always Tyler.
3:35 I understand we should call bottom pair here to defend our rng. However these spots are always interesting to me. Are we calling down, are we hoping he checks and we can get to showdown, are we hoping he checks and we bluff river? I always wonder what exactly we are hoping for or what exactly we are looking to do.
Same hand, after xr flop should our opponent then have blocked turn and check evaluate river?
21:00 can we ever xr this hand on the turn as a bluff?
Thanks!
Thanks SoundSpeed! I always appreciate your questions.
3:35 -- I think generally calling small raises here with any pair make sense for two main reasons 1) It doesn't make us a look like a nit, so he won't start bluffing more. 2) It's hard to design a range that makes bottom pair -EV as a call. Even if we only have EV on the A or 3, we hit those hands 11% of the time and both outs are likely reasonably clean, so I think the implied odds make this very close. And if they have less implied odds, we get more showdown value against his bluffs which improves the value of the 3.
I'd always showdown on this board texture (actually basically all) because the bluffs don't get really pulled from bottom pair here -- more from J,K and weak ace-high. If we get to showdown bottom pair will win between 20-30% of the time which require a really big overfold from OOP to make it bluffable.
Yeah AJ is going to be squarely a bluff-catcher on the river in a 3-street game and never really ahead of range (much less calling range) on this run out -- so he should be checking and evaluating.
With 8h8c on Th9d6h3h, it'd never be a bluff, just pure protection with a nice equity component. I personally avoid these plays because I'm not sure I'm folding much better and guarantee max loss against JJ+. PIO likely adds them in small quantities to boost the EV of a 9x call here and lower the value of calling 7x7h, but more pragmatically, unless we know he likes to bet call 7x7h, 5h5x and bet/ fold 9x we should avoid this sort of play.
Messed around a bit with flatting pairs in the sb, think I like bet/fold out of the sb, but I sometimes don’t mind flatting 22-66 in the sb maybe flop a set. Problem is we face a squeeze a lot from the bb or when we miss flop big sad.
It's actually pretty clear that played well, it's important to ahve a flatting range from the small blind. However lots of players do not play it so well and miss too much value with their 2p+ combos being OOP.
What a fun runout and river bet!
Can we be happy check calling here at some frequency?
I think it's a mandatory value bet. He has very few bigger hearts.
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