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My Graph...Then we Do Some 3B Pots

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My Graph...Then we Do Some 3B Pots

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Tyler Forrester

Elite Pro

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My Graph...Then we Do Some 3B Pots

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Tyler Forrester

POSTED Jun 28, 2022

Tyler Forrester begins the video with a look at his stats from the last few months. Spoiler alert, he's still a winning player. Then he gets into hands where he is in position in a 3B pot and offers tips for navigating these scenarios.

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RunItTw1ce 2 years, 9 months ago

Are you ever using GEO sizes after using 2 sizes on the flop? If you go 33% flop then the GEO size on the turn is 82% and if you go 50% flop the GEO size is 70%. I was wondering if you should have a 33-70-82% option on the turn instead of just 33/85? Or are you against GEO sizes for polarity reasons?

35min. I think this AJ is the key hand of the video for me. Having a spade would lean me towards bluffing, but as you showed PIO is only bluffing on Qx and value betting Jx, and then the Kd exactly. What do you think about this spot in practice? Usually best to give up with AJ AQ KQ combos? Also wonder if you went 33-82 instead of 50-85 if the higher SPR turns these combos more into bluffs or give ups still?

Also thank you for sharing graph in the beginning. I don't think anyone doubted your relevance to beating the games and happy to see a coach still putting in some volume and not just making coaching videos.

Tyler Forrester 2 years, 9 months ago

I picked the sizings as a compromise between the double barrel line and the check, delayed c-bet line. Practically it has very little impact on range structure because we are changing the odds by a couple of percent, so there are going to be very few hands impacted. In practice, my turn sizings will be slightly smaller.

On the AdJs hand, I think we need to understand the size of v-bet range which is actually pretty small. Since it's small, we just aren't going to be able to bet all of our overcards + one card spades here. AdJs has a little showdown value so it gets checked a fair bit, but something like KoQs would generally be pure bet, because it's a lower value check.

benjaminholmes 2 years, 9 months ago

11:09 85% on the T turn with KT? I know you have specified sizings so in that context that makes sense but what sort of size would you prefer in game? I think a somewhat smaller sizing produces indifference for like JJ or 88 w/ diamond? Also A3 barreling high frequency, why A3 instead of like A4/A5? A3 has very little sd in practice sure but isn't the wheel draw good to bluff with or?

22:20 AsQd is less preferred than AxQs because you force As to call? I'm a little confused here, I guess it's only calling if flopped the fd and you're getting value from like ATss (and then river goes xx or something on brick)? I've actually seen this interaction quite a bit for turn bluff selection in 3bp so good to get some clarity on it if this is the reasoning.

Great video, always good to review 3bp.

Tyler Forrester 2 years, 9 months ago

I've never been much of a fan of sizing down my v-bets and sizing up my bluffs. It makes an always call strategy really profitable, because you lose say -10bb against the v-bet and win 15bb against the bluff for example. It also makes hand reading really easy, which long-term could mean 0bb against v-bet and +15bb against bluff which is a catastrophe for the opponent.

It's the number of possible bluffs on the AQs hand, with the As he just doesn't have AsXs to bluff so he's actually range is better constructed to handle the extra calls. If I want to increase bluffing frequency here AsXs is the first new region in, which makes AoQs a better call long term. If I have As, then even against the expanded bluffing range, my EV is similar. PIO finds some mix to call the hand, but practically it's probably pretty bad.

benjaminholmes 2 years, 9 months ago

thanks for response, didn't mean to size value and bluffs differently, meant an entirely different size, 85% is just a bit bigger than what I see most people use in these sorts of spots in 3bp, see more b65-75. Although, sure, this has a minor impact on pretty much anything, was just kinda curious about the non "standard" size.

Explanation on AQ spot is helpful, thanks.

Tyler Forrester 2 years, 9 months ago

Just to follow up we have so many gut shots on this board that it seems like bigger hurts value more than smaller because we can’t bluff all of our draws at the smaller sizing.

mitchr1598 2 years, 9 months ago

Hi Tyler I think in this video you mention theres basically 10 different board types you need to study in nlh (could be different video, I just watched 3 of yours in a row).

Any chance you can specify which board types these are?

Tyler Forrester 2 years, 9 months ago

Okay so I came up with 17 or so boards when counted. I'm going to use B to represent Broadways, M for T-7 and L for 6-2.

ABL, AML, KBL, KMM, QMM, QLL, JML, JLL, TML, TLL, 9ML, 9LL, 8LL, 7LL, B-Paired Boards, Medium Paired Boards, Low Paired Boards, Monotone, Ace-High Monotone, B-straight boards, M-straights, L-straights.

A, K high boards account for roughly 40% of boards, Paired are 18% and Straight possible are 18%, Monotone are 5%. Rainbow is 40% and 2-tone is 55%.

SoundSpeed 2 years, 9 months ago

Thanks for sharing the graph. However, you have always been one of the best coaches here and I feel quite confident in learning from you.

12:00 do we have 2 cbet sizings here? My thought was we would want to size up a fair bit but with a spade in our hand we can use some smaller sizes.

The way pio was playing in the co it seems player pools call 3bets way too much oop. Is that your experience? I think I may be overcalling in these spots.

Thanks!

Tyler Forrester 2 years, 9 months ago

Thank you! Sometimes, I think the argument against me is that I'm some old timer that hasn't modernized so I wanted to show I was still performing at top-levels.

On the 2-bet c-bet sizings, you can always use multiple sizings -- I don't personally for these reasons: 1) It's hard to decent math in game and the 2 sizings doubles the amount of nodes we need to construct. 2) Because 1 is so hard, the vast majority of players with 2 sizes give away so much information about their hand that it's actually easier to play against because one sizing is usually completely out of balance.

PIO and the player pool disagree pretty significantly on the calling OOP -- my pool defends 60% of to a 7.5 bb with a 20% 4-bet and 40% call. PIO defends the same range with 20% 4-bet and 20% call. This leads to lots of scenarios where PIO is just too conservative with value-betting and bluffing ranges.

SoundSpeed 2 years, 9 months ago

I think it is a definite leak of mine trying to use 2 sizes in spots like this.

The thought of "modernizing" your game is interesting. Besides grinding solvers and possibly database review, what other paths to improvement are there? What do pros rely on? Beyond solver work and training videos I don't know any other effective means.

Tyler Forrester 2 years, 9 months ago

The solvers have definitely complicated the game considerably. Lots more players are willing to try low-frequency off-beat lines with hands to try to match the solvers balance. The other major change is the number of betsizes in many spots has exploded. I'll face a c-bet size on say 862 of anywhere between 1bb and 200% of pot. This is much more complicated to play against then some of the older heuristics of bet 3/4 check or auto-c-bet 33%. I use a couple of approaches to understand poker better. Using PIO to understand multi-street situations better, because it incorporates future action better than the poker stove analysis. I also use a lot more sophisticated database analysis on the profitability of different lines with different hand regions. Hand2Note has really been a game changer for the amount of information available.

rodgethat 2 years, 9 months ago

How did you get preflop in the trainer? Did not realize this was an option until I saw this video, Thanks

rodgethat 2 years, 9 months ago

Thanks for the reply, I use monker for all my preflop sims, Do you just input one pio preflop sim in the folder then the rest postflop script to get all the different boards? Been using the trainer but only input a bunch of postflop scripts so not sure how to do preflop as well and cant find any info on it online.
Enjoyed the video look forward to see more.

TRUEPOWER 2 months ago


When I get check raised on these boards with ax I’m always like man why didn’t I just check lol

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