Playing the River Out of Position
Posted by Tom Coldwell
Video Player is loading.
This is a modal window.
The media could not be loaded, either because the server or network failed or because the format is not supported.
Resume Video
Start from Beginning
Watch Video
10
Loading 16 Comments...
On the hand where you have 55T6 and you bet for value into two people on a 5KJ6A board, what do you think about bet/folding for about $10 instead of shoving. Against weaker players playing with medium stacks I think we can actually take advantage of the small stack sizes and use it against them to bet small for thin value without the risk of getting bluff raised. Because there would only be about $10 behind in a $55 pot, I would assume that 99+% of medium stacked opponent's at 50nl aren't going to think they have any sort of fold equity when they reraise all-in against us, and we can fold with damn near certainty that they have us beat with the nuts when they reraise us.
Aside from saving a little money against the nuts, I think we can expect to get more value on average against 2pair type hand against weaker opponents by giving them such great odds to call whereas I think they can find easy folds with some of their weaker two pair hands after we check/raise the turn and shove the river.
With regards to the T655 hand, I think your idea is pretty sexy but, having thought about this hand more, I am beginning to wonder if we aren't beat just too often to make any value bet here (if >50% of their continuing range is QT then we shouldn't bet assuming they don't bluff ever when we check). I think that 3-handed this might just be too thin, although I think it's about the nut non-nut value-shoving hand (if that makes sense) 'cas we don't block top two pair etc.
I'm also not 100% convinced that a smaller bet would increase the calling ranges of our opponents given we are already only betting half pot, although I certainly think it's an interesting idea and the psychological difference between our bet and one which puts an opponent all in is always something worth considering so this could work in that way.
The other thing we need to work out is whether an increase in their calling range would make up for the value lost against the losing calls they'd make against a shove (although my gut says this is unlikely to be an issue given we aren't getting called by a worse hand the vast majority of the time and we're also saving money against QT).
Basically, I'm not convinced if we're better betting here than we are just check/folding although I like the way you are thinking about this spot and I really appreciate you bringing this idea up as I hadn't thought about it before.
very helpful to me tom, love your vids, thanks
PS ` In last hand of this vid when you decide to check raise your hand as a bluff, repping house most common play line, in analysing your opponents hand i think you forgot to mention he could have had trashy AA KK over pair maybe
PS2' Im still struggling with 4 betting IP, idid as Zen suggested in 1 tread started to 4 bet stronger aces and kings, suited bdwyas and premium rundowns, but what keeps happening is that one of the blinds overcalls as raise first person as well, and i get on flop multiway, and 3 ways happens a lot that if i have AA goes 678 type of flop, if i have rundwon goes 225 or 77J where obviously opponents ranges do well, and im sipmly tho being IP am in situation i usually jus gotta 4 bet check fold
Id like if you can make some more 4 bet vids~ thank you
You are correct, I did forget to mention villain was capable of having a random overpair in the last hand which increases the merits of check/shoving 'cas he's very capable of going for value with them and he'll pretty much always fold them to a jam.
As for the bit about 4-bet pots, I dunno if I'll have that many interesting hands in my DB where I've 4-bet and gotten stuck 'cas it's kinda hard for things to get tricky with an SPR of like 1. For those, you might just be best making a thread and seeing what people thing. However, I might see if there are others having this issue, in which case perhaps people can email me hands and I could use them in a future vid.
D..damn lol i meant 3 betting :S i always mix 3 4 bet and left and right
4 betting i dont have trouble with, its easy
About that T9JK hand (48:00) river c/raise: I do think that a 3rd barrel would have a decent amount of Foldequity versus 1pair hands like 8xxx. I just can't imagine they are calling with those hands. However, overpairs on the flop like TT's-weak KK93~~ seem possible to call 3barrels. His river bet sizing of 10$ seem to fit that kind of hands and I think you're c/raise is great here to make those hands fold.
My real question about this: How quickly could you rule out a lot of 2xxx hands of this opponent? Are preflop flatting ranges less likely to have a 2 than 3beting ranges? Or would he raise the turn? A deuce would be all I'm concerned about with the c/raise...
Also, in his position, would you call a 2 on the turn? It just seems so weak, but at the same time if 2xxx is raising on the turn, the calling range is extremely weak.
Hey, thanks for the comment.
With regards to how many 2xxx hands villain will hold, I'm not really certain but I would consider them infrequent simply on the basis that most people play fewer 2xxx hands than 8xxx or 7xxx, not to mention all the hands which have draws. Equally, when the second 2 rolls off, combinatorically these hands become an even smaller portion of villain's range.
As for how I'd play a 2, I am pretty sure I'd flat a decent percentage of the time because it'll be hard to get a ton of action from worse and I'd prefer to keep opponents around with hands which are crushed - more likely to get two bets in calling and calling or raising than I am raising turn (and I doubt I'll get a turn raise and a river bet called by worse that often). I would raise some strong 2s, maybe most A2s and some K2s, but then I can't imagine having THAT many 2s in this spot given they are usually in crappy hands. Maybe like AT92ss to the A or something as it's the kind of thing I'd have flatted pre and called the flop with.
The important thing about 2xxx hands is that villain is very likely to bet them OTR when we check and also very unlikely to find a hero-call against a shove. Given I think 82 is put in a pretty tough spot by my line, you have to think than 2xxx is a harder hand to call off with. I would certainly be very surprised to get looked up by it. However, I think the vastly most likely villain had in this hand is exactly what you suggested, a poorly connected overpair which he was trying for thin value with and I am pretty certain that this shove will get those to fold almost always.
As to whether this was the best line for the river given everything villain could hold (pairs, draws, and the odd stronger made hand), I'm not certain. The third barrel probably had a decent chunk of fold equity against some stuff but to me his depends heavily on how many overpairs he'll have (he is unlikely to find a hero fold with them if I simply fire again imo).
Hey Tom.
Great video. In min 12 where you had QQJT on QA5 K 3. would you have XF when the river wouldve been a club (the most obvious Draw otf)?
Thank you so much for your quick answer. Really great Tom.
Only question I have, is, do we ever NOT check/fold once we check here?
I extra opened a thread at low stakes PLO because I find myself often in these kind of spots, me beeing OOP and the river bringing the 3rd suit and me having a set or me having the flush and the board pairing otr.
Any tips for these situations as I really struggle with these spots.
E.g. On your QA5 K 3 board do we ever check/ and then not fold here?
Thanks again Tom. Great vid and great site. Thumps up!
If you are having trouble with these spots, I would suggest you post some of the hands in the forums and see what responses you get. Pretty soon you should be able to learn some useful stuff that way I'd think.
Thanks again for your input. Just had an amazing session after watching your video.
Variance FTW :-)
Tom,
regarding the hand where you c/s R 8722-Q...
Given all the analysis above (from you and others), does that mean that when we are in villain's place, we have to ch-down a hand as weak as 8xxx and not try to turn it into a bluff? As either such a bluff or a thin v-bet, would only open the door for us being bluffed off of it?
So yes, I think he should check behind his 8s etc. I just don't think there's much to be gained by betting them and obviously it can go very badly for him if he bets (called by better, jammed on by worse).
Be the first to add a comment
You must upgrade your account to leave a comment.