Know Your Enemy: PLO10 Zoom
Posted by Tom Coldwell
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Thanks Tom. You are a real asset to this site. Your videos and the noticeable amount of work you put into them are so valuable. Thanks for yet another great video.
I think this is a really good format for a video and really helpful for someone playing these stakes. I think it would be helpful to see these things in action as well though. So maybe one video where you do exactly what you have done above and then the next video is you implementing this strategy. I think seeing the strategy and ways to exploit the player pool in play is very helpful for drilling it in. You could, if you do not want to play the stakes again yourself, find people on RIO that do and perhaps have a video where you coach them and you are both discussing implementing the plan. I am sure you could find plenty of volunteers, and more specifically people that want to break into the stake above, so you could do a video of them taking a shot and you both discussing the different strategies needed.
I will certainly consider a practical application video, probably coaching/sweat style as opposed to just my play (I think it would be more valuable for me to look at someone else's game because I can identify the spots this could be applied/mistakes being made). No promises, but I'm always on the lookout for ideas so thanks for this one!
Nice vid. Are you concerned that different types of 'bad' players (the loose passive 8/28, the too-nitty 12/13 and the maniacal 45/60, for example) are getting you averages that somewhat cancel out each other and return the general pre-flop stats you got? I mean, there aren't many super-nits nor too many absolute maniacs - most players tend to be loose-passive - but there might be enough to skew the numbers. I'm not even sure it would be useful, but it might be interesting, to look at how post-flop stats change if you grouped together general player types. It probably wouldn't change your general recommendations, which seem true regardless.
Good vid. I've often thought that the 10plo and 10nl games play differently enough from even the 25plo and 25nl games to warrant specific examination.
If there are certain villain types who, once you've identified, are giving you trouble, let me know and we can talk about how to take money from them too!
No - I was just thinking about breaking out the different player types and seeing if there are more general tendencies to glean. I actually broke down about 16k NL10 hands in the same way you did and got surprisingly similar numbers. Now that I've taken the time to figure out how to generate these reports, I'm finding out a lot about my player pool. (Mostly that I can basically cbet 100% of the time and still make money.) Thanks for getting me thinking along these lines.
Great video, very helpful for people playing these stakes.
I am still interested in your opinion about Zoom. Given winrates are generally lower in Zoom poker because people are tighter and do not spew that much money around compared to non-zoom poker but rake is equal (correct me if i am wrong). Is it usefull to play Zoom at these stakes with the purpose of bankroll-building because of the higher volume you achieve compared to non-zoom?
And how do you think does zoom poker affect your game? Is it equally good as non-zoom to improve your game?
However, the volume issue is obviously a huge plus point as it means we can get through a ton of hands very quickly. This isn't good for someone learning the game, but if you feel comfortable and are simply looking to grind up to the next stake asap, 4-tabling Zoom (potentially alongside some regular tables if you can manage it) will help you win the money you need. You could easily get through 50k hands in a week just 4-tabling Zoom if you were sufficiently committed which should be plenty to earn you enough to move up if you are a solid winner (and you don't run like death).
Cliff notes: For low/micro-stakes PLO, learn at regular tables, but grind at Zoom imo (unless you'd prefer to grind at regular tables which is obv fine - there are always enough running that you can get plenty of volume unless you play Nanonoko fast).
Excellent video Tom. Thanks for putting in the hard work to get all those numbers and present them in a user friendly way. What size do you recommend for c-bets given the stats you've generated. I usually use a 3/4 pot sized c-bet and have found it to be very profitable at these limits. Just wondering if I could make more with a different size . . . Keep the vids coming, good stuff!
Good question:
In general, I would advise tailoring your c-bet sizing to the board texture (the wetter the board, the larger the bet) - I've actually made a video on this specific concept. However, for 10PLO Zoom, I altered this strategy quite a bit:
1) If I had air/a weak hand, I tended to decrease my sizing. I would still pick one tailored to texture, but rarely bluffed much larger than 1/2 pot because I didn't feel that calling ranges were particularly elastic (i.e. they didn't differ much depending on the size I chose).
2) If I was strong, I would be willing to increase my sizing. For the wet boards, this didn't matter as much, but on the drier ones, I figured that I would take advantage of these inelastic ranges by extracting more with my value hands (going 3/4 pot w/ JJ on J22 is not something I would do against competent villains as it's just going to be too unbalanced or I'm going to be bluffing far too big).
So basically, I took into consideration board texture and hand strength because I felt that I could get away with a reasonably transparent sizing tell. However, I would have absolutely no problem with you simply selecting your size relative to board texture and playing soundly in that manner (good poker is good poker). I just felt that I could save a little on my bluffs and gain a little on my value bets with this exploitative approach.
Hi Tom, Great vid. You touched a little bit on what hands these players are limping, what types of hands should we be iso-raising with?
In general, I would be looking to iso-raise very wide in position with pretty much my entire opening range for any given position except the very bottom hands which I'd muck (not isoing Q974r OTB but I would open that if it folds to me) and those hands which prefer multi-way pots which I'd limp (especially crappy suited ace hands - things like AT62ss).
great material, very helpful to me even though i don't play 10 anymore. do 25 next !!
Excellent.
I like this video, but I think that for to be reliable you have to say the size of the sample for these stats (I apologize miself in advance if you did it cause my english is very bad and perhaps Ihaven't listened it). And I'm going to give here the size of the sample I think it's significative (from an old book for LHE) so perhaps it's not good numbers but these are that I use to consider a sample reliable.
VPIP: 50 hands
PFR: 50 hands
3bet: 500 hands (100 times)
fold to 3bet : 3k hands (100 times)
C-BET(FLOP): 1K hands
fold c-bet(flop): 1k hands
OR (by positions): 1,5k hands
4bet PF: 4K hands (100 times)
river bet: 10k hands (150 hands)
very reliable sample , thanks Tom.
Good thing to check though - I was very conscious when making this content (and remain so re: 25 and 50PLO content to come) that I needed to get enough hands that my numbers meant something.
Great video, thank you.
I was wondering how did you get those stats from your database. Im using HM2 and maybe I just overlook it, but I cant find all the stats from my vsPlayers.
Not that I do not trust you, but I want to compare your stats with my stats. And do the same analyse you did :D
If anyone really knows how to work with HM2 and could share that would be amazing.
A similar effect can be achieved in HEM using player aliases. Basically you'll want to create an alias for all players (or however you want to group them) and then you can use the normal filters and tools as usual.
Super awesome video, I'd love to see similar ones for PLO25 and 50 when I get there. I checked my PLO10 database and I had very similar stats. I'll be looking forward to check my population stats in some 10k hands to see if doing super exploitative things like 100% Bu RFI and betting the size of my hand changes the population stats.
Also, if you want to automatically get the averages of all villains in PT4 you can make an "All Players Report", remove the Player column and add "Player is NOT Hero" as a filter.
Just chose 'Player is Hero' and then select it and make it a NOT statement in the screen that lists all the filters. The Booleans are useful for making very specific player reports.
Great video, once again. Thanks for taking the time to help us micro grinders out :P. Probably the wrong place to post this and I apologise, but my holdem manager2 does not work on zoom. on the HM2 website there is an FAQ I have followed all steps and it does not work still. Has anyone else had this problem and know how I may solve this?
Only other advice I can offer is make sure HM and PS are running in admin - it fixed the issue I was having w/ PT4 a while back.
i am very new to plo and the site. thank you. the video is awesome. this is the most helpful video i have seen so far. silly question, but can i safely assume that these stats will be similar in the non-zoom plo10.
can tell you put in hard work on this video. very nice
As for using these stats for non-Zoom games, I can't speak with too much authority because I've never played them, but my assumption is that the conclusions I draw from them will serve you reasonably well. However, I suspect that preflop ranges will be slightly looser in the non-Zoom games as there isn't that instant gratification given to folding weak hands.
Also note that it's really important to observe non-Zoom villains as you should be able to develop reads pretty fast. Until you have done that though, using these numbers as a baseline should serve you okay I would think.
Awesome vid Tom! I don't know if you are still reading these comments but I would have one question though. At around 19 min mark you are talking about how our button opens are almost immediately profitable because BB is folding ~56% but shouldn't we take SB's defending frequency in to account also? So that would make blinds to defend [24.40 (SB's calling frequency) + 7.52 (SB's 3-bet freq.) + 37.25 (BB's calling freq.) + 7.01 (BB's 3-bet freq.)]=76.18% making it far less profitably to open BTN or am I missing something obvious here like we can exclude some numbers or something like that.
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