I really got a lot out of this great video. I really liked the opportunity to pause and build my own range based on your criteria and then compare it with yours. The quality of your work never fails to impress. Thank you.
Thanks Willie. The pausing thing is something you can do in almost any video whether the instrcutor prompts you to or not. It's a great way to work on your thought process.
hi peter very interesting video , I want to ask you about the example you are giving in the polar 3betting vs weak opponent how you know or calculate that calling QTs ,QJs ,KJs is +EV vs the range of utg open raise. Those hands are fairly dominated by our opponent range and we have some reverse implied odds ;even when we hit top pair it's gonna be hard to continue versus agression until the river .
In the same topic , is it possible to 3bet KJs , AJs , ATs to increase our fold equity by the blocker effect . thanks again for this high quality video .
It's hard to calculate exactly whether flatting or 3betting will be higher in EV vs this exact weak player as there is so many factors postflop that will determine the overall ev of the hands.
It's really a combination of empirical data, common consensus, and feel. The factors that contribute to EV are too vague and unquantifiable to allow me to give you a proof or even say that where I have drawn these lines is actually 100% correct.
A question: you talk about using a polar range mostly against early position. Are you referring to 6 max early position? I play mostly full ring and I am wondering what kind of ranges to use against say , a weak opponent opening from EP in full ring. Even a little guidance here from you would help a lot. Thanks!
It will depends on the likely reactionary trends to your 3-bets in the pool, but the tighter the opening range and the greater the fold equity as a % of that range, the more polarised we should be.
Thanks for the kind words. I will gladly makea video modernising the rather outdated defence approaches from TGM. I do think high microstakes rake makes some differecne especially in spots where we pay rake 100% of the time.
Learned a lot, Your polar example HJ vs BB you have a 3 betting range containing 78s and 65s. I never seem to bluff with those hands because they flop well and getting 4 bet off of them isn’t ideal. I tend to choose hands like K3o or Q4o that are too bad to call with and also just easy folds if we get 4 bet. Do you ever do this?
I think that unless fold equity is huge, you are taking too many hands to the flop in a 3-bet pot that hjave very poor EV vs. a 3-bet defence range from an average player. Better to ditch the blockers for playability particualrly out of position where you will see more flops on average due to less villains choosing to 4-bet or fold (or some unintentional strategy that plays close to 4-bet or fold)
A few questions:
First, I understand that focusing on value from an equity advantage perspective when choosing a 3bet range is ambiguous because there are multiple factors involved like position, implied odds, skill advantage… However, according to the definition you gave to the linear 3betting Hero is 3betting “only a continuous procession of hands from AA down to where we decide our hand is too weak to 3bet”, and too weak to 3bet is also ambiguous I guess because it is also related to equity and the other factors like position, implied odds, skill advantage... I mean how do we know a hand is too weak to 3bet? How do we build reasonable default ranges, and is it possible to make reasonable deviations from them at the table according to certain guidelines?
2nd, how much fold equity should we expect to use a polar range? Like 55% or more? Or does it depend on other factors too like position and skill edge? And to use the linear model (less than 50%)?
3) You recommend using a polar range against early positions as default unless we know we do not have enough fold equity. My database shows that my 3bet success percentage against EP and MP openers is 31%, so I guess I should be using a linear range as a default unless I know otherwise right?
4) In the range you gave when we are in the BB facing a 3x open from the HJ, you used hands like A8s, A5s-A2s, 76s-65s.. as 3bet bluffs because they are too weak to call. I have seen other coaches flat these hands and Pokersnowie preflop advisor does the same. Any thoughts on this? Is it because of the high rake at the lower stakes?
A hand might make an okay 3-bet in a vacuum and have similar EV to one slightly better hand that makes the cut, however, as part of a long-term strategy the inclusion of such a hand in a linear 3-bet range might give Villain +EV exploitative adjustments like 4-betting more or over-defending in general. This would lower the long-term EV of the range. The differecne in vacuum EV between a hand that is 'strong enough' and one that isn't is certainly microscopic sometimes.
It's hard to say exactly because in reality these three strategies are milsstones on a specturm of fold equity. In reality, we slowly polarise more and more as we expect the EV of 3-betting marginal hands to be lower relatvie to calling than in equilibrium. A slow polarisation might involve simply upping the frequency of 3-bets with hands like 53s BB vs. BU and lowering the frequency of KQo.
Recs who open from EP think in terms of absolute hand strength and hence call 3-bets almost always after opening a snug range. It might be worth reifning the data to only target regs. This can be done with ordering by no. of hands.
You can flast these hands. Rake plays a part and might shift the bottom of the flatting range/top of the folding range downwards. That said, if you have a large edge in your pool, it shifts back the other way again. 100% raked spots (eg. flatting a pre-flop open from the BB incur a greater rake cost than those which involve no rake on common branches such as opening SB.)
I got the manual. It is downloadws to my phone. I am trying to it to email so i will be able to keep it when the phone is no good. But i can not do it, i think do to some copywrite stuff. Any advise on how i can do it, or can i download a 2nd copy from site to my email?
1) In the linear part, it’s not too hard to play OOP against a good reg with hands like brodways off and pocket pairs ?
This 3b part is against people how call a lot to 3b so i think we can be in difficult spot with these hands …
2) In the polar part, against the weak reg, what do you think about call IP with Axs and suited connected, and use Ax and Kx connected non suited for 3bet.
Those last hands are difficult to play postflop but its not a big deal against players how fold a lot to 3bet …
Very helpful video for me right now. I'm playing in games that frequently feature OR's followed by a string of callers and especially an OR, we 3b, and get multiple callers. I was indeed applying a linear range to these situations (as well as a larger sizing from EP) but seeing all 3 types of 3b ranges laid out in detail like this was great. Thanks.
Reviewing this again today: What would you do with those ranges in an NL10 or NL25, high rake environment? How much would you tighten up the 3b and calling ranges?
Thanks Peter. Your instruction is excellent, as it has always been. I still remember your poorly drawn comics illustrating small pairs as bombs that only explode 1 in 9 times.
Question: why are we mixed 3betting against a STRONG reg at 37:15? We DO have fold equity, as a strong reg will be folding a decent amount when 3B. Also, a strong reg will have a scary 4-bet range that can blow us off a lot of our equity in the middle of our range that we are 3betting half the time. Example, we have KJo/QTs/78s/A9s and we 3b but we face a solid, balanced, polarized 4bet range. Now we have to fold our equity with these beautiful hands! Wouldn't a polarized range be best in this spot?
Great video. One question though:
In the last example, shouldn't we expand our green 3-bet range more since the SB's opening range will be wider than buttons, hence on average hands like KJs will be further ahead (equity-wise) of the SB's open range than the button's?
wow,you've got the whole package. i'm gonna watch all of your videos. thanks for your time. great job! Be honest, i think you are better than some of the ellite coatches.It would be better If you can slow down a bit. You are thinking and talking too quickly. it's hard for me to follow. However, i really like your style and learn a lot from your system. Thanks again.
Great video, keep more like this coming :). For the SB 3bet or fold range, what fraction of BU's opening range should we be 3 betting? I think it's important to know vs the nittier/looser openers.
Coming back to this video about 6 years later do you think people use a mixed strategy primarily or do people still mainly used Polar/Linear strategy? I would say still not too common to see a mixed strategy implemented well.
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cool video!
want to see more your theory videos!!!
Yes give us more theory video !
Thanks, more than happy to make more theorrtical stuff. Let me know what topics you guys want covered.
I really got a lot out of this great video. I really liked the opportunity to pause and build my own range based on your criteria and then compare it with yours. The quality of your work never fails to impress. Thank you.
Thanks Willie. The pausing thing is something you can do in almost any video whether the instrcutor prompts you to or not. It's a great way to work on your thought process.
really good watch! really straightforward 3bet range construction and explanation
Thank you!
hi peter very interesting video , I want to ask you about the example you are giving in the polar 3betting vs weak opponent how you know or calculate that calling QTs ,QJs ,KJs is +EV vs the range of utg open raise. Those hands are fairly dominated by our opponent range and we have some reverse implied odds ;even when we hit top pair it's gonna be hard to continue versus agression until the river .
In the same topic , is it possible to 3bet KJs , AJs , ATs to increase our fold equity by the blocker effect . thanks again for this high quality video .
I think peter is assuming.
It's hard to calculate exactly whether flatting or 3betting will be higher in EV vs this exact weak player as there is so many factors postflop that will determine the overall ev of the hands.
It's really a combination of empirical data, common consensus, and feel. The factors that contribute to EV are too vague and unquantifiable to allow me to give you a proof or even say that where I have drawn these lines is actually 100% correct.
Excellent presentation.
A question: you talk about using a polar range mostly against early position. Are you referring to 6 max early position? I play mostly full ring and I am wondering what kind of ranges to use against say , a weak opponent opening from EP in full ring. Even a little guidance here from you would help a lot. Thanks!
It will depends on the likely reactionary trends to your 3-bets in the pool, but the tighter the opening range and the greater the fold equity as a % of that range, the more polarised we should be.
Great videos you do a good job explaining things. Would love to see you do an up to date
Big blind range video.
Ps your books the best Ive read :D
Thanks for the kind words. I will gladly makea video modernising the rather outdated defence approaches from TGM. I do think high microstakes rake makes some differecne especially in spots where we pay rake 100% of the time.
Having problems with 3-betting this video is very useful. Thank you. Also reading Grinders Manual trying to improve. Keep up the good work bro!!
Thanks I fully intend to keep making content till you guys tell me to go away :-D
great video. your polar example hj vs bb-- seems like a very tight defend range!
Yeah it's likely a bit too tight. I would say though that 3-betting very marginally +EV calls is very solid in higher rake pools however.
i actually thought that is hj vs bu. because in the bb we will be defending much more than that.
Learned a lot, Your polar example HJ vs BB you have a 3 betting range containing 78s and 65s. I never seem to bluff with those hands because they flop well and getting 4 bet off of them isn’t ideal. I tend to choose hands like K3o or Q4o that are too bad to call with and also just easy folds if we get 4 bet. Do you ever do this?
I think that unless fold equity is huge, you are taking too many hands to the flop in a 3-bet pot that hjave very poor EV vs. a 3-bet defence range from an average player. Better to ditch the blockers for playability particualrly out of position where you will see more flops on average due to less villains choosing to 4-bet or fold (or some unintentional strategy that plays close to 4-bet or fold)
woowwwweee i was a WHALE
87s and 65s are good for board coverage and suited connectors retain their equity very well vs a strong range imo.
Yes, they are higher EV hands vs. tight defence ranges.
Hey Peter,
Thanks for the video
A few questions:
First, I understand that focusing on value from an equity advantage perspective when choosing a 3bet range is ambiguous because there are multiple factors involved like position, implied odds, skill advantage… However, according to the definition you gave to the linear 3betting Hero is 3betting “only a continuous procession of hands from AA down to where we decide our hand is too weak to 3bet”, and too weak to 3bet is also ambiguous I guess because it is also related to equity and the other factors like position, implied odds, skill advantage... I mean how do we know a hand is too weak to 3bet? How do we build reasonable default ranges, and is it possible to make reasonable deviations from them at the table according to certain guidelines?
2nd, how much fold equity should we expect to use a polar range? Like 55% or more? Or does it depend on other factors too like position and skill edge? And to use the linear model (less than 50%)?
3) You recommend using a polar range against early positions as default unless we know we do not have enough fold equity. My database shows that my 3bet success percentage against EP and MP openers is 31%, so I guess I should be using a linear range as a default unless I know otherwise right?
4) In the range you gave when we are in the BB facing a 3x open from the HJ, you used hands like A8s, A5s-A2s, 76s-65s.. as 3bet bluffs because they are too weak to call. I have seen other coaches flat these hands and Pokersnowie preflop advisor does the same. Any thoughts on this? Is it because of the high rake at the lower stakes?
Sorry for the long post and thanks again.
A hand might make an okay 3-bet in a vacuum and have similar EV to one slightly better hand that makes the cut, however, as part of a long-term strategy the inclusion of such a hand in a linear 3-bet range might give Villain +EV exploitative adjustments like 4-betting more or over-defending in general. This would lower the long-term EV of the range. The differecne in vacuum EV between a hand that is 'strong enough' and one that isn't is certainly microscopic sometimes.
It's hard to say exactly because in reality these three strategies are milsstones on a specturm of fold equity. In reality, we slowly polarise more and more as we expect the EV of 3-betting marginal hands to be lower relatvie to calling than in equilibrium. A slow polarisation might involve simply upping the frequency of 3-bets with hands like 53s BB vs. BU and lowering the frequency of KQo.
Recs who open from EP think in terms of absolute hand strength and hence call 3-bets almost always after opening a snug range. It might be worth reifning the data to only target regs. This can be done with ordering by no. of hands.
You can flast these hands. Rake plays a part and might shift the bottom of the flatting range/top of the folding range downwards. That said, if you have a large edge in your pool, it shifts back the other way again. 100% raked spots (eg. flatting a pre-flop open from the BB incur a greater rake cost than those which involve no rake on common branches such as opening SB.)
Hello Peter.
What would you recommend when sizing the 3 bets, should we use the same size for all 3 ranges?
I use to have a coach tell me that when using a linear range we should choose a smaller size.
This is the best thing I ever saw.
The Grinder's Manual is available only on Kindle? Just asking. Pretty sure I'm going to get it either way.
I got the manual. It is downloadws to my phone. I am trying to it to email so i will be able to keep it when the phone is no good. But i can not do it, i think do to some copywrite stuff. Any advise on how i can do it, or can i download a 2nd copy from site to my email?
I just bought it, too. I wish I could print it so it would be easier to read.
I hear that
The example you show at 13 minutes: What stack sizes are we talking about? It's going to make a difference if we are 30bb deep or 100bb?
Great video though, I do appreciate it!
Awesome presentation! Thumbs up!
Could you please comment what to do when playing on sites without HUDs where everybody is unknown?
Great video!
When you define villain as a weak reg who folds "a lot" to 3 bets, how often is a lot, exactly?
At first thank you for the video.
I have two questions :
1) In the linear part, it’s not too hard to play OOP against a good reg with hands like brodways off and pocket pairs ?
This 3b part is against people how call a lot to 3b so i think we can be in difficult spot with these hands …
2) In the polar part, against the weak reg, what do you think about call IP with Axs and suited connected, and use Ax and Kx connected non suited for 3bet.
Those last hands are difficult to play postflop but its not a big deal against players how fold a lot to 3bet …
Very helpful video for me right now. I'm playing in games that frequently feature OR's followed by a string of callers and especially an OR, we 3b, and get multiple callers. I was indeed applying a linear range to these situations (as well as a larger sizing from EP) but seeing all 3 types of 3b ranges laid out in detail like this was great. Thanks.
Reviewing this again today: What would you do with those ranges in an NL10 or NL25, high rake environment? How much would you tighten up the 3b and calling ranges?
Thanks again.
Thanks Peter. Your instruction is excellent, as it has always been. I still remember your poorly drawn comics illustrating small pairs as bombs that only explode 1 in 9 times.
Question: why are we mixed 3betting against a STRONG reg at 37:15? We DO have fold equity, as a strong reg will be folding a decent amount when 3B. Also, a strong reg will have a scary 4-bet range that can blow us off a lot of our equity in the middle of our range that we are 3betting half the time. Example, we have KJo/QTs/78s/A9s and we 3b but we face a solid, balanced, polarized 4bet range. Now we have to fold our equity with these beautiful hands! Wouldn't a polarized range be best in this spot?
Hey man thank you for the video! Appreciate it.
Does anyone know if this analysis applies mainly to cash games or tournaments?
Great video. One question though:
In the last example, shouldn't we expand our green 3-bet range more since the SB's opening range will be wider than buttons, hence on average hands like KJs will be further ahead (equity-wise) of the SB's open range than the button's?
wow,you've got the whole package. i'm gonna watch all of your videos. thanks for your time. great job! Be honest, i think you are better than some of the ellite coatches.It would be better If you can slow down a bit. You are thinking and talking too quickly. it's hard for me to follow. However, i really like your style and learn a lot from your system. Thanks again.
Great video, keep more like this coming :). For the SB 3bet or fold range, what fraction of BU's opening range should we be 3 betting? I think it's important to know vs the nittier/looser openers.
Thank you, great video for the three styles of 3B!
great vid!
Learned a lot from your video! One quesiton thought, how do we know our opponents' fold equity is high or low from the stats?
Coming back to this video about 6 years later do you think people use a mixed strategy primarily or do people still mainly used Polar/Linear strategy? I would say still not too common to see a mixed strategy implemented well.
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