Don't 4bet and call a 5b oop with the bottom of your loose opening range

I guess the best translation would be Are you tense? in slang portuguese.

In these spots "getting a good price" isn't worth as much. The reason why is because he won't be able to realize his equity because getting stacked is such a massive ICM disaster. When my stack-off range (traps) are super nutted there is no need for me to make a huge raise, I'm inviting my opponent into the pot to play v. me oop with a capped range and the inability to call down correctly due to ICM.

+1 to Scoop 109 video...very good vid, cant wait for rest of series

+1, too much final table vids in my opinion, please a serie from the start to the end of this Scoop deep run :)

I've requested the 109 hh from stars, I'll see what I can do!

I'm 3betting AJo 100%, calling AJs some portion of the time. Overall its probably higher EV in these spots to be taking the initiative and using your stack leverage. In spots where I think the ev of calling and 3 betting is close, I'm usually going to call when I don't have much ICM leverage and 3b when I do.

20.00, The QJs hand. There is ALOT of ICM acutally. Folding seem like clearly the best play here imo.

I saw it this way as well

+2

I would certainly argue that the non-showdown give ups you're saying he could have (J10,QJ) are getting c-bet over 95% of the time. He has a massive range advantage on K54 and would always bet the hands that block my good top pair call-downs. I think you may be modeling his range after a heads up NL hand or a button v. bb situation. Also, from an exploitive standpoint, MTT players are c-betting much higher than equilibrium and are going to arrive to rivers in spots like this with much fewer bluffs. I can get behind me having a weak range and him splitting his bet sizes on the river.

Jason,think u got action wrong when explaing. this hand went bet on flop, check turn, and bet river.... those jt qj did get cbet but checked the turn when they failed to pick up equity. Your analysis seems to assume qj jt checked flop, which i agree is a mistake

@5betbluff you're absolutely right, I did think the flop checked through. If he's betting Kx+ here for big sizing, it's going to be pretty hard to add a ton of bluffs. the reason why is that he doesn't have that many value hands Kx or greater that take this line. I believe the board was K45 flush draw. If he's c-betting Kx on this board he's def. going to want to continue to betting on a turned 7. I don't think it's out of the question to check back some Kx on the turn, but I really expect most of his 2 street Kx hands to go bet/bet/check and not bet/check/bet on that texture because protection is so important.

" If he's betting Kx+ here for big sizing, it's going to be pretty hard to add a ton of bluffs. the reason why is that he doesn't have that many value hands Kx or greater that take this line"

If he doesn't have many value hands, this is why he should bet bigger. Your alternative of betting smaller to represent more hands doesn't really solve the problem as now we need even more value hands for him to not have a snap call with any bluff catcher (because of smaller sizing). You can only add so many value hands. Mind explaining what your river value betting range would be here and sizing?

Maybe tournament players favor betting with any king on this turn, but the turn definitely helps the flop caller more than the better, so I don't think he should bet every king on the turn.

Even though the board may not be great for his opening range doesn't mean he can't bet with strong hands. He has plenty of hands that get to bet this board and this is one of them. Your argument for his visibility on turns and rivers being poor is counter-intuitive; this would be one of the main reasons he should bet the hand and happily make it a 1 street game if I shove. The EV of betting in this spot surpasses the EV of checking by a mile. There is no need to split a strategy of betting/checking a vulnerable top pair on a flop with 20bb because I can't massively over-bet and punish is weak check backs, there are only 20bb's left to play with. Putting a few super strong traps in his check back range and appropriately defending is bluff catchers is all he needs to do.

Is he even profitably getting in J8 on the flop here cEV? Given the ICM dynamics (multiple shorter stacks)my point was that J8 isn't really a "strong hand". There is a lot of value to staying in the tournament in this spot and a lot of good things and not much bad happens when we check.

The benefit of pushing my fold equity pre, cannot overcome the disaster it would be to smash 80% of my stack in v. one of the other chip leaders and get called by QQ+; Even though I am uncapped, so is he (this is why a click back range is necessary). This once again looks like you're interpreting the hand from a cash game stand point. Yes, large raises are theoretically correct against linear ranges, but this isn't considering ICM implications. Weird stuff has to happen in tournaments, and smaller bets/raises in a lot of places are generally the result due to being eliminated as one of the chip leaders being such a huge disaster.

Your first sentence implies I was advising to shove the AJ I think? I wasn't. I'm wondering why you think clicking back is a necessary strategic option. If you have QQ here or AK, I would think shoving makes more sense. Is he making a mistake against your range calling with A4 vs click back? And why do you think clicking AJ is better than calling?

Also you seem to be going back and forth. Us shoving and losing here is a disaster but that other guy bet/stacking off J8 on that board is miles better than checking when there are multiple shorter stacks? When we have AK instead of AJ and we click it back and he shoves and we call and he shows 77 or something (and hands like this are a big part of his iso range, and he isn't really making a mistake calling our clickback or even shoving), we put ourself in this silly $ev spot where we would have much preferred a fold. What edge are we pushing with this click back as opposed to a strategy that calls or shoves?

My understanding of tournament ICM is mostly intuitive so I'd be happy to see some proofs.

Also, apologies if I come off too confrontational here. I really appreciate your videos. :)

You should shove AK and induce QQ+ in the pre-spot v. villains A4o. With the J8 spot, bet calling top pair v a range that will be check shoving strong 7x, all 8x and good draws for 20bb, is very different than shoving in 53bb pre with AJo vs. the other chip leader, when you're talking about ICM implications. I appreciate your concern on sounding too confrontational. As long as you're trying to learn, I'm happy to discuss spots with you. I certainly don't have all the answers and am always open to learn from the bright minds that use this site. Good luck!

This is a very interesting spot (last hand with AJo), and by no means do I feel like I know the answer 100% here. I think it's worth more discussion. I don't like the J8 parallel and agree that hand is a very clear bet/stack off on flop.

I did put this one in ICMIZER as best I could, which means looking at what hands ANYGAME wants to call with after making it 102k and we reshove.. I couldn't do it another way. So assuming that BB is all-in with about 28% of hands (all pairs, all Ax, T9s-K9s, and all broadways)...
If we are reshoving WIDE - {AJo+, ATs+, 88+, KQo, QJs, KJs, KQs} = 8.9% .. then he should only call AKs, QQ+ = 1.7% & JJ/AKs are close!!
If we reshove a little less wide - {AJ+, 88+, KQs} = 7.1%, than he can only call QQ+ = 1.4%
If we reshove SUPER WIDE - {55+,A8s+,ATo+,KTs+,KQo,QTs+,JTs} ... let's say our entire flatting range = 13% ... ANYGAME should only call JJ+, AKs.

I then put in the situation where we make it about 145k, the BB is allin again with 28% of hands, and ANYGAME reshoves all-in. If he shoves 77+, AK = 4.8% of hands, than we can profitably call TT+. If he decides to peel with some more of the middle pairs getting such a good price and shoves TT+, AQs+, AKo = 3.8%, than we
can only call QQ+.

If he opens and is iso-ing with A4o, that means he is probably iso-ing with the majority of his hands he opened. First it probably means that he's opening in the 25-30% range and likely re-isos with most of those hands. Even if we reshove pretty wide here - he should only be calling with 1.7% of hands. My guess is that has to show a profit.

So what does this mean? It means for sure that his iso is pretty terrible in this spot with A4o. I can't imagine that we are flatting over 15% of hands.
With looking at both our options, I think in this situation against an opponent as wide as ANYGAME is here, it's clearly better to just shove our entire flatting range. Even if we shove our entire flatting range behind his ISO - he can only call about 2% of the time, or likely 10-25% of the time he ISOs. That just has to be correct. And I think it has to be better than clicking it back in position and inviting either a call or shove from him.

If we make ANYGAME play more correctly, than what should we do? Well going back to the original question... should we have a click-back range or not? I'd imagine our click-back range would be like QQ+ and a few of our weakest hands that we called initially, and we would shove a few hands and call a few hands. It's unclear to me that if

I think I agree with prisonmike that in this spot we should be flatting or shoving. I like most of his reasoning so won't repeat it. Jason, when you say "the benefit of pushing my fold equity pre..." - I have to disagree because I think clicking never folds out our opponent so our fold equity here is literally 0. He's getting 7-8:1 in immediate odds to call, so anything he doesn't shove he is calling.

So this play boils down to, is it better to re-open the betting to the opponent in order to create a side pot in a spot where we are ahead of the BB shove range and uncapped and likely folding our worst calls to his pre flop iso (though that can't be many hands, bc how many worse hands that AJo are we flatting here realistically?). We will be able to leverage the side pot we are creating, although I don't agree that he is folding anything less than a Queen on the flop. I think he's probably calling any pair at least once he gets that far.

My intuition says that shove/flat is best. I also just did one last bit of work that I think helps show this...

Also, just like you can tweak a click-back range (as KOON), you can tweak a shove range. I think the optimal shove range that's part of a reshove as KOON would be one that has AK still squarely -EV to call and JJ about neutral so only QQ+ is a call and JJ a very small fold. Here's a range for that, if Koon reshoves {JJ+,88,77,AKs,A9s,A5s,AQo+,ATo,KTs,QTs} then that is exactly what happens. He can then flat some of the rest of his range to the 102k ISO or fold depending. It allows Koon to shove almost 7% behind which is huge, and ANYGAME can only correctly call QQ+ which is 1.4% of hands. AND it also allows Koon to realize equity with a lot of good hands that we are flatting behind the ISO... such as AQs-ATs, KQs, 99, TT, AJo.

So when taking this monster all together... i think shove/flat is the best way and click-back isn't.

Ya Grafton makes me lol too

I certainly wasn't playing to the degree of intensity I should have been.

Thank you and good luck!

Yes 5b fold.

There is still money to be had! Hope you're doing well Scott.

I'm not sure if this is right but, isn't HRC FGS option designed to solve this kind of problems?

Thanks for this.

This is very specific, but find it super interesting sir. In this particular spot the guy had JTo with 8 bigs in the HJ, but is jorj95 applying the same logic with 10+ bigs? Or just under 10 bigs when we're going to run into the blinds very soon ? I guess it is kinda the 2nd one but if I could get an answer on this would be very appreciated, thanks !

DavisGaming I was unaware of FGS at the time of this post. The FGS feature looks pretty spot on!

wp sir

agreed!! considering icm it s just the worst fucking bullshit play ever!
to take a crappy super high variance spot with shorties at the ft is just ridiculous!