Street By Street: Functional Approach to Game Theory (Part 2: Turn Play)
Posted by Krzysztof Slaski
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I am very interested in a pre flop vid. The Tyler Forrester series on SB vrs Button 3 betting helped me understand some misconceptions I had.
I would love to see in future you talk about how we should change our strategy when the board changes drastically, for ex: 89Khh, turn Qh (complete FDs, TJs and making KQ 2 pair), what we should do with our three of a kind, our AK's. IP and OOP. I have a hard time in these spots. Sorry for bad english ^^.
first of all thats great stuff you are doing, you explain concepts very clearly and those types of videos inspire the mind much more to come up with new ideas than pure hand reviews.
Based on the AAAA board you had, I created a riverspot on AAAA2 pot being 100 and stacks left 300 and i gave at first oop a polarized range of 55 and 77 and ip a bluffcatcher range of 66. First i gave for both players (i guess ip doesnt matter since vs polarized range checking he is always going to check behind but anyways) only three sizing options, 33, 75 and 150%, the ev for OOP was around 79. Now I increased the sizing options for both players to 25, 33, 40, 80, 100, 150, 250 and 300%. Now OOP has an ev of 87.
It could make for a video idea to show how much different betsizings in our strategy increase our ev on various boards, I find this interesting also thinking that there are theoretically an enourmous amount of betsizing options, if they were all implemented, how much the ev would increase in certain spots.
Now i did the same simulation but i reversed the ranges, oop having the bluffcatcher of 66, and ip having 55 and 77. Here the ev doesnt change drastically with more betsizing options. I cant 100% figure out why that is right now. When oop has the 25% option it donkleads/blockbets alot, but with 33, 75, 150 it doesnt do that yet the ev isnt much different its like 20 with less betsizing options and 21 with more.
Hey Linc
Thanks for the kind words. I do like your idea about taking a look at how not using different bet sizes limits the EV of a strategy. I've already finished working on the flop video, but I will try to include this idea in some future video. So if I am understanding the question correctly your setup looked like this:
Sim #1:
OOP has 77,55 IP has 66
You gave it bet sizes of 33,75 and 150% then added 250 and 300% and it affected the EV.
Sim #2
OOP has 66 IP has 77,55
Same idea but now EV doesn't change that much ?
You are talking about the EV going from 20 to 21 for OOP in the 2nd sim, are you sure you are changing the bet sizing options for the IP player as well and not just the OOP player? Adding the all-in bet size for the polarized range will surely have a large effect, and I would guess its the reason why your EV jumped from 79 to 87. Pretty interesting that OOP would ever lead in the 2nd sim, I am curious if that is only happening due to solver error (Are you getting the tree down to 0% exploit?)
If you changed the polarized players bet sizes in the same manner in the 2nd sim as in your first sim, and solved for ~0% error I am honestly not too sure why the EV for that strategy doesn't change. I would imagine adding the all-in bet size would gain the strategy quite a bit of pot share regardless of position.
Cheers.
Hi Krzystof, I just repeated the simulation again to make sure I didnt make said potential mistake you mentioned but I did not. Betsizes are changed in both positions each time yet when we have OOP sitting with the bluffcatcher, the ev of more or less betsize options doesnt change much, while when OOP has the polarized range, the EV changes alot. Im trying to include the screenshots of my numbers. When using many betsizing options, you cant see all of them, but i made sure they are there in each position.
OOP Polarized Range less betsizing options
OOP Polarized more betsizes
IP Polarized less betsizes
IP Polarized more betsizes
unfortunately the screenshots come out very small not sure if readable at all...but the numbers are as mentioned in my first post
to me the only reasonable explanation seems to be that when we have the bluffcatcher oop, we can blockbet small and since the only raise option i gave is 3x, there cant be put enough pressure by IP. I am sure wiht more raise sizing options this will change in fact im checking this quickly now....
yes so oop ev decreases to 12.5 when i add 3x, 5x, 7x, 20x as raise options for both players so im fairly confident now this was the issue.
Hey again Linc
The limited raise size is exactly your issue. Funny enough I made a similar error in my flop video(as you'll see when it comes out). The OOP player realizes that he can lead small and only face basically 3x it's 25% bet so it does it every time and saves itself money. Adding more raise options will give you the same results as your first sim, rendering position meaningless (as it should be with perfectly polarized ranges)
Glad to have this type of discussion going here, thanks.
Cheers.
"I don't want to have to think. Thinking is hard. I could be doing other things instead." - Krzysztof Slaski (Henceforth to be referred to as, "The Legend") =D
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