Warm Up Routine: Playing the Turn
Posted by Steve Paul
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Interesting drill that I might set it up and try out myself. Look forward to the river play part!
29:45 How is raising the best play when its not the highest frequency or highest EV?
Would like to hear more heuristics being used or thought process on Can I get called by worse? Do I get better to fold? Do I unblock the bluffing range? Do I block the value range? What are my future bluffs i.e the 98d on the JTXXsshh board where we use diamonds and clubs are future bluffs on the river.
20:20 with A4o I would want to call here holding As4x blocking some of the combo draws like As7s and not needing much protection, but without a spade I would want to raise. One question I would ask myself is if I face a bet on the river will I have an easy decision? This usually helps me lean towards calling or raising on the turn if the SPR is going to be low on the river.
30:55 I wonder if the JhTs is being used as some type of merged bluff on the turn and future bluff on the river. It blocks some Jh3h/Jh4h hands and then the Ts blocks some B+3B on the turn from combo draws and when called allows you to bluff spade rivers to try and get over pairs to fold in this XC-XR-B line? Jh will unblock some bluffs I guess as well as IP will likely give up with hearts and barrel spades, diamonds, and clubs on the turn. Double checked on wizard right now and the Jh seems to be a very powerful card blocking some KxJh, QxJh, and after you XR seems like majority of the calling range on the button wants to have a heart in it QxJh, KhJh, QhJh and even your combo for JhTs. This hand was pretty shocking. I still don't understand it even after looking at how the btn continues. On 2s river JhTs is shoving all in as a bluff, so the Ts is being used as a future bluff. I am not sure why BTN continues with more off suit JX hands with a heart.
29:45 - Raise is the highest frequency, it just splits among 3 sizes. But I wouldn't put too much stock in these kinds of spots solver never actually gets to.
20:20 I don't think that's the right way to think about protection. When we raise A4 we get protection from some 5x/3x and some of the very worst FD but having the As has 0 impact on how much protection we get - the benefit of not having the As is that now villain has a bit more Asxs that he can call with, but it's not a huge effect. The main problem with raising A4 is it's just not strong enough. We block the only worse made hands that continue (Ax, and even some of those fold to raise) and we are bloating the pot OOP on a board where many rivers will drastically change equities.
30:55 This is another spot solver very rarely gets to (flop is mostly big bet or check) and so the turn overbet range for IP is super narrow (I see 2.52 combos) I don't think the solution here is very actionable, the Jh is super powerful in solver because the range is almost nothing and a big chunk of the continue vs raise range has the Jh as you point out.
42:30 & 44:35
Several times throughout the video you mentioned calling some strong aces given they have more outs to improve on the river and over fold more of your raw equity small to medium pairs on the turn facing aggression. I personally struggle to find any ace high calls on the turn besides AK and often end up calling these small pairs hoping they are bluffing and just give up on the river. What would be the thought process behind calling AQ/AJ/KQ high cards on the turn? Are we thinking implied odds when we improve? Are we thinking unblocking bluffing range using certain suits? Are we thinking we barrel over pairs so Ace high is high up in our range? Are we thinking about donking on certain rivers as a future bluff?
Really enjoyed this video and Iamneo is a beast!
The difference in these two spots in terms of texture (ignore the river) Not sure why wizard is showing the river when we are drilling the turn. So we have front door spades vs back door diamonds and we have T high flop vs T coming on the turn in terms of texture differences. Hopefully someone can help me understand the differences in these ace high calls. I'm leaning towards future bluff opportunities where AQo with a diamond on the right then maybe we continue? But I assume we would barrel if we had a diamond as well.
If we take the board on the left and think about what IP will float with and then bet turn, it will be a bunch of KQ/AJ 1 spade, some hh hands, and then some 2 overs with no suits.
So when deciding what hands to call turn, you don't want to call KQ because you don't beat a bunch of bluffs. As for the rest, the problem is that the suit effects don't all work the same way. A spade is nice because it means one extra clean top pair out, but it also blocks bluffs (the As seems to be better than the Qs because of the offsuit KxQs combos but even that isn't clear.)
Ok last comment
48min When you discuss jamming with a spade because it has more equity when you take a B33-X and face a B66 bet from the IP player on Ah 3s 2s Ts board. When I looked this up if we jam with a spade BTN is calling off AQ/AJ pure regardless of suits on the turn. When we play B33-XC66 on the turn when we face this 54% river shove now AQo/AJo no spade is 0EV and mixing folds about half the time. I think the extra spade equity on the turn is serving as a dual purpose of getting called by worse and also free rolling vs chops. Then AQo/AJo for the button in this hand is playing C33-B66-X with AQ/AJ.
I was in the same boat as you as wanting to call with a spade because we can just bluff catch the river. Happy to see opposite is more true.
Even though I know you felt you were not providing great content as you didn't know the answers to some of these drills, I thought the video was great. Happy to share the learning experience together with you. Looking forward to going through more of Matt's defensive drills together.
OOP is going to be more equity driven with the raising range, but I found it interesting where OOP is XRAI vs a B66 turn bet with AsKx or AxKs the opposite is true for the IP Player. He wants to unblock your AsQx hands and is shoving more AKo no spade facing B66.
Maybe we can come up with a heuristics for OOP just raising all in with equity draws and more merged value hands. IP being more polar. In this sim hands like 5s5x, 4s4x, 9s9x, A5d, A4c are being used as bluffs to balance out the value of some lower flushes, AKo, sets, and straights. But also SB not supposed to barrel this medium size and only supposed to use X or 33%. So out put could be so far off against the tiny # of combos that actually ever use this size. Raising range for IP player vs B33-B33 is still the same on the turn just raising roughly 3x instead of all in.
"Even though I know you felt you were not providing great content as you didn't know the answers to some of these drills, I thought the video was great. Happy to share the learning experience together with you. "
Appreciate it! It's tough sometimes getting a bunch of spots wrong in a video!
"But also SB not supposed to barrel this medium size and only supposed to use X or 33%. So out put could be so far off against the tiny # of combos that actually ever use this size."
I often worry about this...it would be nice if you could add as part of your drill to only use sims where solver gets there with at least x combos. Incidentally that's part of why I still do some training with my own sims so I can run some boards with some sizes and others with others.
Steve Paul There was a video probably a year ago from Patrick Sekinger where he used his own ranges and sizes and was able to import them into Lucid GTO Trainer. Hopefully wizard can improve to something like this in the future for 1 size per street or maybe a max of 2.
Hey RiT, appreciate the good questions and sorry for the slow reply - I've been laid up on the couch the last couple days with some kind of flu bug - I'll do my best to get to these tomorrow or Tuesday at the latest!
No worries take your time. Been drilling about 500 hands a day since I watched this video. Trying to plug a lot of leaks!
31.00 44 on 752ss3
Like you I struggle to work out which pair plus gutters to check raise the turn with. Usually I would opt for a flopped board pair + gutter as this blocks more of villain's value hands such as sets or 2 pairs. I would have therefore not opted to check-raise the turn with the 44. I think the reason it is used here by the solver sometimes is because 2 straights complete on the turn - A4 and 64s, so the 4 becomes the more important blocker as it is in both straights.
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