Button vs Big Blind Flat

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Button vs Big Blind Flat

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Steve Paul

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Button vs Big Blind Flat

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Steve Paul

POSTED Jun 04, 2020

In looking to get back into poker, Steve Paul continues his exploration into various common situations this time focusing on button vs a big blind flat.

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Dan Self 4 years, 9 months ago

Awesome video! Exactly what I was looking for at the moment. How much would you consider 'post flop skills' when constructing your BB defense range given rake implications? Obviously if you're up against a massive whale, it will pay to widen signficantly, but in most games where you're not playing against a perfectly balanced Simple Postflop opponent, would you defend wider than the ranges from the beginning of the video? Thanks in advance!

Steve Paul 4 years, 9 months ago

Tough question. I would say I err on the side of not giving myself credit for any special postflop skills unless my opponent is clearly a recreational player. I might be leaving a bit of money on the table but it's just so easy to overestimate your abilities (at anything, but especially poker) that I try to be pretty conservative in that regard.

RoleTide 4 years, 9 months ago

I am not sure but do you think T5 is a call more often than A5 because the T is live more often than the A vs. the cbetting range? Great video and it was really helpful to see how you are taking notes on each board.

Steve Paul 4 years, 9 months ago

That could definitely be part of it. I tend not to worry too much about blocker effects I don't understand at this point. Sometimes they seem very logical, other times it's just a little too deep for me :)

RunItTw1ce 4 years, 9 months ago

Hi Steve Paul,

The app I play on a lot of people either open 2.5bb, 3bb, or 4bb and no other sizes. You would have to type in your bet it you want to make a random 2.2 or 2.6x sizing. You said the EV of BB defense needs to be at least 1.5 since the BB is calling a 2.5 open and putting in another 1.5bb, then the BTN needs to have EV of 2.5+ to be a profitable open.

Based on 3bb opens, it looks like only 17-18% of hands are profitable given the EV of that chart. Does this mean opening 30% of hands on the button for 3bb is losing a lot of money? Also for like 4bb opens only like 88+ and AQs+ fit into 4.0EV or higher. This does not seem correct.

Lastly I see some coaches just solve trees in terms of knowing what hands to bet 1/3 with on all flops instead of mixing sizing. Do you think learning different sizes for these 74 flops is most profitable? Wouldn't making a mistake with different sizes on different textures be less profitable? Also how come coaches seem to use 1/3 or 3/4 mostly? I almost never see coaches solve anything post flop for half pot bet? I see players use half pot bet ALL THE TIME in my game.

Steve Paul 4 years, 9 months ago

That chart won't tell you what you can call vs bigger sizings because the pot will be a different size. So for example QJo has an EV of 3.028, but that's of the 5.5 pot (less rake). Had button made it 4x and BB called the pot would be 8.5 (less rake) and the EV of QJo would be higher than 3.028. Without running a new set of sims we don't know what it would be, especially since ranges for both players would be narrower.

Re: is 3x'ing button losing money, my understanding on preflop sizings is mostly just from what I've heard from people who have spent a lot of time with preflop solvers: smaller tends to be better but it's not a huge deal as long as you adjust your opening range appropriately.

Re: flop sizings, if you screw up and use 3/4 where 1/3 is better then yes you'll lose some EV. But if you only use 1/3 on all boards you are definitely giving up some EV. My default when playing is to size up on boards I know big is better but to use the smaller size when I'm unsure because I still feel like most small stakes players (including myself) struggle to defend properly against it.

As for why no one uses half pot in their sims, that's a good question that I don't really have an answer to. One thing I will say is that often when you get a spot where the solver mixes between the big and the small sizing, you can instead use an intermediate sizing (like half pot) with a very minimal loss in EV.

Grimiscool 4 years, 9 months ago

Really enjoyed this Video. Easy to get lost in the numbers when using solvers but this kind of break-down helps make it much more digestible. Thanks!

Ryan 4 years, 9 months ago

Honestly, don't feel like I can follow along with this content. Not familiar with using these charts etc and 90% of it goes past me. For example, you mentioned Axo being a losing defend in the beginning, and it shows 1.3x or something as the BB. Same for the T8o/98o region as the bttn. These are things I already implement, but came to these conclusions via discussions. Not really sure if there is a way to break down how to use these spreadsheets, but it might be worth taking time explaining what everything means, how to interpret them etc. I'm a full time player and alot of this is going past me, imagine there are lots of people who simply can't digest this material. I know I would like to, but feel very overwhelmed and lost when looking at this video.

Steve Paul 4 years, 9 months ago

Hey,

First of all, I think people tend to be reluctant to leave negative comments but they are often the most useful so thanks for the response.

I do find it very hard to find the balance between going too in depth and losing people's attention vs going too quickly and having it be difficult to follow (I've quit watching videos for both reasons myself)...rewatching, I can see I glossed over a lot when showing some of the spreadsheets, I'll try to do a better job of introducing them in future videos.

Re: the losing defends, what I was trying to say there is that since BB had to call 1.5 preflop, any hand that has an average EV <1.5 is a losing defend in this sim (thus A8o etc. were losing.) If you have any other questions feel free to ask and I'll do my best to address them here.

Steve

Ryan 4 years, 9 months ago

that makes sense. Yeah, don't know exactly what you could do differently, but I know I would like to see it done differently haha. Sorry to be so vague.

Clarke does a pretty good job simplifying these concepts with imagery. Maybe I'm just way more visual, and these detailed charts are hard for me to follow

OMGIsildurrrrman12 4 years, 7 months ago

Ryan - "Maybe I'm just way more visual, and these detailed charts are hard for me to follow"

I'm with you, man. But also, it can be helpful to understand that human brains often operate quite differently from one another, so while guys like Steve and KRab and Qing Yang might seriously benefit from spreadsheets and charts, guys like me (and presumably yourself) struggle to make sense out of what we are staring at. Just stick with it and eventually you may be able to visualize for yourself what is externally visually "unappetizing."

Quick self-deprecating anecdote:
I took the Qing Yang C-betting course. It was great. But my brain thinks and learns very differently from Qing Yang, and so I have been staring at the course content for months (lots of spreadsheets) and trying to force my brain to make sense out of it all. So far, no luck. But I'm going to hope that something eventually clicks and so we'll keep on trying! =)

Steve Paul 4 years, 9 months ago

Here is the evs spreadsheet that has the EV for big only vs small only vs Mixed. I seem to have deleted the other one accidentally :/

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VvhOxymi62BgVbnx-ZK6JvtBlmwa1IM9/view?usp=sharing

OMGIsildurrrrman12 4 years, 7 months ago

Steve Paul - I'm greatly enjoying journeying with you as you get back into poker shape. I sort of thought of a series like this close to a year ago now. I just started getting back into poker a year ago and thought it could be very informative to have someone who knows the game fairly well go through and "re-learn" it, so to speak. Well, I'm sad I didn't voice my idea, but I'm very happy that you had it as well because you are both more qualified and better able to pull this sort of thing off. So well done. I'm going to check out the next videos and hopefully I can find something to complain about =P

Thanks, Steve!

Magicpig 3 years, 4 months ago

Excellent video!

Nice the way you let us know the last bullet point is coming up: And the last one, etc.

Nice bullet points.

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