Taking Advantage of Bad Players
Posted by Espen Sørlie
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They are not Bad Players, they are Fun Players :)
Thank you for this series, I think playing against weak players is often overlooked.
Nice video Espen.
Hello I dont understand why you raise in late position to steal the blinds and dont cbet when you flop backdoors.
any hand in particular you are talking about?
Personal question: were u such deep in makeup that after winning SM and ftops ure still playing such low stakes and only low stakes. Or did u just invest in a house? Cuz i dont understand this extreme approach... Once your bankroll is alot bigger, ure making a big mistake imo, because u cant improve your game if ure not moving up the stakes and playing tougher games. Because everytime I have u on my table ure playing these kind of stakes...
I think most of the pro-MTT grinders like Jabracada for example understand that Volume is King. Why submit yourself to the variance of playing 20 100$+ tourneys a week when you can play 40 10$+ tourneys a day.
Also, the price pool in something like the bigger 11$ is comparable to the big 109$ ... yes you'll have a field that is 10 times bigger in the 11$ but you'll also have opponents of which 60% don't have a chance of even making the money.
Yeah this is very short sighted.
There's a lot to be said for playing a nice schedule which produces 6figures in EV a year and not as much variance. See Espens Bankroll requirement vid for an explanation as to why this is a nice approach.
You just have to objectively assess your edge in any given mtt.
I don't think Espen will disagree here, but winning the SM and FTOPS, whilst an incredible achievement, does not suddenly make you +EV in teh Super Tuesday and the Sunday 500 etc
I'm not commenting on if he is or isn't btw, i would not know. But you get the point...
A lot of pros like to fire up 10 $10-$20 dollar MTTs because it's nice dependable income for them. They still play the bigger ones but stars for example has micro mtts with prize pools of $50k and up this week. Probably because there are a lot of weaker players. It's not like he's single tabling the Big $11 lol. Also don't forget when he wins $1k in a $10 mtt it's pretty stunning ROI
Not sure how playing a bunch of lower variance games where you can almost auto pilot and get good-great results can ever be - EV.
@ amapro so playing 22fo deepstack that has 35bi for first and takes 3 days to finish is EV+ right coz it is soft? I mean selection sure but playing this no thanks
I didnt say u should stop playing lower big field tourneys like h16 and 8r...but 22deepstack and 35 1500gtd. come on man...
Hello guys! First of all I want to say that playing these stakes is my own choice, not something I have to do because of limited funds. I simply think it has the highest life EV, BR ev etc, and Im not even sure if I can beat the s500 and ST (atleast not by much, like danshiel said) so I dont play them. I am likely to invest in a house soon also (not going to go much more personal than that).
the 22(deep) is actually not something I play on the regular but flicked in this day because I had few tables and you could count the regs in the whole field on one hand. the 35 turbo on 888 is fine though, super soft and doesn't take long at all.
Some sickos can play a $150-200abi schedule on the regular and make loads, but to be perfectly honest I don't think I can do that. Very few does it, and many try and fail.
Nice response. I happen to favour your approach partially because it is more achievable also! lol And that I relly buy in to the "lide EV" aspect.
We'd all love to have a graph like the Greenwood brothers, but being able to log on twice a week and hit a 5figure score everytime we do so isn't an easy task! :)
One thing I thing is worth mentioning, in response to a comment earlier is that 1st prize being low does not mean that ROI isnt comparable. It's an important distinction in my opinion.
A good example is the Hot 16.50 (an mtt mentioned earlier). Given that this is a turbo I think there's a strong case that you would have a higher ROI (read profit per time you play this mtt) on the 16.50 360cap reg-speed mtt simply because the field is generally soft and the Hot 16.50 is a turbo afterall.
I know that the latter tourney is a total "bowl comp" and hence isnt as exciting, but the point is valid.
To be clear, I do think the Hot 16.50 is a must play in most schedules, but I also think there is a hell of a lot of merit to designing a schedule which includes the smaller mtt's as well. In fact, I suspect a significant % of the mtt community would have far less make-up and stress in their lives if they took this approach.
The trouble with playing the big fields exclusively is that your livelihood (if you are a pro) is reliant on some sort of positive (or at least not negative variance) when in reality you're just as likely to be under EV as you are over.
I really dont know if you will agree with me here, but I wanted to write it down and I do think it has merit.
Hi Espen. On about 35 mins you have the Q8 hand in top left table. I want to make sure I understand the play once we get to the turn. I would have thought the king would have been a good card to double barrel. Is the reason you don't because we have value with the queen, and because you expect him to peal so wide on the flop that we are only gonna get called by worse when we bet again on the turn, or shoved on. Are we not just setting ourselves up for a tough decision when he then does shove the river by check calling turn?
Also when he does shove the river do you think he mostly has value due to ICM considerations. There are two stack which are shorter than his. Do you think the players on this table are ICM?
Generally I think this is a good spot for him to shove the river super wide. Perfect Stack, safe river card and correct me if I am wrong but our range is capped to a one pair hand.
Sorry about asking 10 questions. I planned just to ask about the turn check and got carried away.
regards,
It is a pretty good card to barrell with our bluffs, because it looks scary for his underpairs and ace highs that he can peel flop with, but we beat all those hands anyway so there's no need to try and get him to fold them. I don't really expect him to peel any worse queens pre, so if we want to bet for value I can't imagine many combos of worse hands calling. We are better off letting him bluff his air than betting and letting him fold it and call hands that beat us.
Otr we have a bit of a tricky one, and I think he will show up with mostly value hands even if he bluffs all the no showdown hands he gets here with. Simply because there aren't that many of them (haven't done combocounting math here). I only somewhat agree with us being capped. I think checking can be good with a few very bladed combos that blocks almost all his value combos for betting the turn. Type KK, QK etc. Very few combos but I likely would check those In addition to hands like this.
I don't expect him to be super icm aware, most people kinda neglect it post flop. That is ofc just an assumption I make on the general field, I don't know enough about this player to comment on his tendencies specifically (neither would I if I knew :p)
You know the KK hand on 28/29minutes(top left)...
When you got 3bet, I was thinking something like "be careful here" cos ICM is shit crazy in that spot and villain should only be 3betting AA for value.
So I would have called the 3bet assuming that we're pretty even vs his value range.
But you say you were super-stoked (or something like that :-) ) when he 3-bet.
Which leaves me a bit worried/confused....
Delighted, I believe he said. I think the operative word in your reasoning is 'should.' He 'should' only be 3betting AA (though I don't believe that's true for a second.) The video is sort of about what to do against players who are doing things they shouldn't. With Espen's stack size, he can be opening pretty wide for value for exactly the ICM implications you point out. Even if it's AQ+, AJs+, 88+, villain can still profitably 3bet like AQs+, AK, JJ+, so we're ahead of his value range. And since, as it played out, villain flatted the 4bet and folded the flop, he's obviously 3betting wider than AA, so you might want to alter your assumptions.
why do we openfold KTo from HJ in hot 16.5 (around the 5th minute of video)?
With no antes its not a huge deal. Probably better to open it but feel like I folded to focus on the 3b pot on the final
With no antes its not a huge deal. Probably better to open it but feel like I folded to focus on the 3b pot on the final
at 17:30 top left we call with Q2o. can you elaborate? Would really like to know what kind of stuff we can call with here and also when we're 20bb deep or less.
the price is just insanely good. we have to call 3,200 to win a total pot of 28,160, which is profitable if we on average gain 11.35% of the pot. In pure equity our hand has around 12.5% against reasonable ranges, but that doesn't really tell the whole story. I know it will be hard to realize our equity because we have more streets to play and I'm probably not going to bluff much 4 way with this hand. However, when we do flop 2pairs+ (around 4% of the time) I think we are very likely to stack someone. Also I don't expect these guys to be able to bluff me off a queen so I can get to sd some times with that without too much resistance unless they have me beat. In which case I will be able to get away and lose minimum. I think if we are at a very tough table I see reasons to fold, but against randoms I think we have just enough equity with the price.
Takk :)
Cliff:
- 3bet 74 against utg open is okay as long as you are as good as op
- You can really abuse 20bbish blind size, they don’t have much options but to go all in
- When people type sad smiles in chat box, it means you made the right fold
- When they are so weak at river, its better to give them a little bit rope to bet than bet it yourself
- Do not fold when you can hit one outer with JJ
- When people just double up, they are slightly gun shy, so we can put more pressure on them
Just watching this video and I have first question.
1. 0.26 down left you open A5o from HJ+1. I looked stack sizes and see that BTN can be problematic with 40BB rest player they will play 3bet or fold. Don't you think this open is a little to lose. Ax rag don't catch good flops (of course we don't play for flops, but to steal blinds). IMO 76s will catch better flops than A5o. If we decide to open A5o in this particularly situation Our range is extremely loose. Don't you scare you will be 3bet many times here?
Sorry for my English ;) Learning still in progress. :) I will keep watching and write all my question here :)
I don't think people flat much and I don't think people 3b bluff much against this stacksize so I use the A as a blocker and dont care too much about post flop playability
2.. 21:14 on the BB you decide to flat with A6s. Don't you think we are to shallow to call with this hand. I mean his range is pretty strong from that position and he have behind one short with 12 BB. So he could't open so wide.
A6s doesn't hist well. I see myself to call in this situation with hands: ATs, ATo,KJs-KTs, KQo-KJo, QTs-QJs, QJo, JTo, J9s-JTs, 98s. and 3bet AI 66+, AJ+, KQs
I will be more happy to just call with A5s than A6s because I can make Wheel more times.
He has a pretty wide opening range and A6s has sufficient equity against his range to peel with the price we are getting
I really liked this video Espen. I'm not as experienced as a lot of the players on this site and I find that the live play at lower stakes is really helpful to show reasoning behind a large number of decisions and not just the tough spots... What might be a straight forward choice for some experienced players is often a tough decision for me still. Thanks and keep the great videos coming!
Good video! The first video I've seen here on rio. Thanks and GL at the tables!
11:08 bottom left 9's dont you feel like he should be fos alot here? Why would he even raise his value hands and if your folding 9's he's really printing money? I would personally just jam there
He most def is printing with bluffs when I fold 9s here. I just felt like with our stack size it is not a common thing to do. I think it is far more likely that he has KK+ or a set. exploitable but also exploitative fold by me. I think I am right when I expect that to be how the general population play this spot
23:00 A8s in sb, i dont think we ever getting a call here from 66 like you say on the river on 4Q892? Are you sure this is a valuebet? I dont see any hands that we beat that can call here because its 3 way?
26:40 A5o - how bad is a check behind here on the river? I dont see us getting called and we give him the chance to check raise the river.
34:00 AJo i think we should raise/limp call here to exploid bad players in a 8 dollar mtt. We dont need to balance our shoving range because they dont know what a good calling range is, so they will fold way to many hands on our shove imo.
44:00 you shove 33 utg with 11bb in the big 109, im always struggling with these situations from EP, i think my EP shoving range with 10-13bb is 66+ AJ+ maybe KQo is that too tight? I was wondering how likely it is there are 2 or more pairs on a 9 handed table. With how many bb are you folding 33 utg?
Thanks for another great video!
Minute 14: given stackdepth Lets say you did 3bet the Q8s pre and flop comes as it is QKx with bdfd do you cbet or check behind, and why?
most likely start with checking that board and try to show it down. you could make the argument for start a multistreet bluff, but I think the value in this field lies in playing showdown oriented with medium hands, valuebet wide, stab wide etc rather than trying to rep super strong and make them fold top pair type of hands.
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