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Violence at the Poker Tables

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Violence at the Poker Tables

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Sam Forde

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Violence at the Poker Tables

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Sam Forde

POSTED Apr 18, 2024

Sam Forde makes his debut at Run It Once Elite exploring the concept of violence at the poker table discussing how norms, expectations and our assumptions shape our playing experience.

If you'd like to learn more about Sam, make sure to check out his Elite seminar series where he provides a thorough introduction on his poker and teaching background.

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RunItTw1ce 11 months ago

Welcome to Rio! Really solid first video. There is a lot to unpack in this video. I loved the extra visuals from John Travolta and sound bites inserted.

I have a question about this masculinity and other regs who tilt. I am not sure what the correct response is to them but something should be said because they are hurting the atmosphere.

The other day this bad reg snapped on a VIP player who literally played every hand the first 2 orbits he sat down. I don't recall the exact action but they were either all in preflop or on the flop J66dd. Where the reg had ATd vs AKo (no diamond). The reg made a comment "if I had 22 I would of won. How can you call that?" The VIP simply responded "But you didn't' have 22 you had AT." The reg snapped on him and started berating him and cussing at him. The VIP apologized "I don't know what I did to offend you but I'm leaving." Walks over to the floor and gets a table change. Usually this type of behavior ends up getting someone kicked out.

I can see the value of being nice to the fun players and saying "nice call" or something a long those lines. But other regs that have these tilt issues and wish to insert their dominance are hurting my bottom line. I try and avoid conflict and be nice to everyone including these regs who tilt. But the casino is not doing much about it. They just get several verbal warnings. Some regs just avoid playing on tables with them because they cause such a negative atmosphere. There seems to be no reasoning with them about the math of being a flip or do you not want the action etc.?

How would you respond in these situations? I think it should be the floors job to ask the VIP player to stay and ask the reg to leave. Casinos are too lenient to these players who lost the pot and "understand their frustrations."

Sam Forde 11 months ago

Thanks RunItTw1ce!

“How would you respond in these situations?”
Yea, I’m connecting to a bunch of what you shared. Thinking back on my own experiences, I have tended to feel let down by casinos in these situations. You look around hoping for adults in the room who will come to the rescue, but no amount of rake seems to make helpful and humane staff materialise (in some places). I wonder how many stories we could gather from the RIO community about times they’ve sat there uncomfortably in tense moments hoping for someone to step up and address the situation. Mind you, some guys here might be so established in their own games that they can speak into things freely from a place of being well known/respected. I’m not sure. It’s one of the hurdles for me, I think, in these settings—I get blocked by the sense of “Who am I to speak to this?” i.e. I’m just another punter and I don’t have a baseline of rapport with Angry-Ted that would allow me to say “Oh, hey, Ted, give the guy a break.”

But also, I want to be ‘real’ with people. This is an important value in life for me. And in the end relating/interpersonal stuff of any kind involve a bit of risk, so I’d like to see myself be courageous rather than just avoid yuck spots. So, anyway, I would play it by ear, but there are some default tricks I would use. Here are 3 to keep this short. 1) “Strike while the iron is cold”— bringing it up at a completely different time when he’s not all dysregulated. 2) Ask for permission first before sharing the observation or bit of feedback you’re holding onto. Sounds weird, but it’s powerful because you are basically contracting to the interaction about to happen. 3) Stick to the specifics of the situation and the impact it had on you personally [“When you did x, I felt y and it bothered me because for me z”].

Anima 11 months ago

Thought provoking, thank you

ps : 1) Now that you've cooled down, 2) would you mind if I shared negative feedback?.. That's great, thank you : 3) when you and others (GTOwizard) use images they don't credit, it leaves me wondering "who's that witch who plays poker in a bra? why am I attracted to her? was she created by a fellow man? does that make me gay?.."

According to a discussion between Aristotle and Nietzsche which took place on Reddit a year ago, an "ethical way to credit an AI generated image" [would be to] "just say 'image generated by (your name) using midjourney' or something like that."

Sam Forde 11 months ago

1) [shouting] I WAS calm, now I'm all agitated! Let's take this to the parking lot. 2) [quietly, mumbling] Yes, OK, I see how easily parodied my how-to-talk-to-an-angry-reg-in-3-steps looks now. I just thought, when reading RunItTw1ce 's comment You're a person in the room. You matter. This is a kind of work space regs share. And probably most of the advice we receive in these situations is to mindfully mind our own business, which can be OK, but also, a bit of relational risk and everyone can benefit a lot. And I sort of imagine the other reg's self-awareness increasing a fraction and that having a ripple effect.
3) All great questions. Potentially part of the mystery of the erotic tension of an AI generated image lies in the lyrics of that old country song "If I said you have a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?" All yearning and no fulfilment potential injects it with something special. And then, wow, yea the piece about the artist-viewer relationship through the object, too... Monday morning rabbit holes... Thanks @Anima. I need more coffee.
About the credit for the AI, that's a very good point. I hadn't even thought of that, which bugs me as I'm pretty conscientious about referencing. I made this one with Vidnoz, but the voice is Speechify. Ah! If the credits are buried in the comments, does it even count for anything? I'll make sure I do this properly next time.

mx404 11 months ago

Very thought provoking vid, thanks Sam.

Love the editing & have a lot to digest. Look forward to your next one!

RiverBandit 11 months ago

Loved the video, format, and topic! Very well produced and it's obvious you spent a lot of time on it. Nice change of pace from typical RIO videos. Really enjoyed it.

matlittle 9 months ago

Hey Sam, this was a very interesting debut. I can really relate to the misguided thoughts for enacting violence. Is this something you will bring up again and explore further in a future video? Would be good to hear your thoughts on how to correct these types of thought processes.

Sam Forde 9 months ago

Thanks! Yep! Will be returning to the topic soon and at the application end of things.

matlittle 9 months ago

You explored lots of the downsides to the norms that we tend to strive for in this list:

I completely agree that those exist and hinder our poker performance and lives. My question is whether you think these norms have upsides too? Take masculinity for example - it may drive us to be more aggressive, not be pushed about and fight for more pots. A certain level of 'aggression' is required in poker, and could potentially be beneficial to some players in this respect. Would you aim for a controlled version of masculinity when playing? Or would you seek to remove it altogether from your game and instead aim for a neutral mentality that makes plays solely based on strategic decisions and is in no way swayed by the desire to assert masculinity into that decision process?

Sam Forde 9 months ago

Thanks @matlittle. I love these questions!

Or would you seek to remove it altogether from your game and instead aim for a neutral mentality

David Foster Wallace’s speech ‘This Is Water’ popped into my head reading your comment. I just searched it up again and listened through. He starts off with “There are these two young fish swimming along and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, "Morning, boys, How's the water?" And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks at the other and goes, "What the hell is water?" To borrow that picture, those norms and expectations in the screenshot are part of the water we are swimming in. We can’t really be ‘outside’ them in any sense. Our language and ideas are all wrapped up in them. So, it’s more that I’m interested in us having some space to notice, name and renegotiate our relationship with them.

A certain level of 'aggression' is required in poker

Yes! A good example of something to unpack. We use this word in the sense of playing confidently, assertively, going for it, taking the initiative, and so on, which are generally helpful approaches when you have a reasonable technical game. Other meanings of aggression are more or less about intending to harm someone; this situation where we have an impulsive angry desire to hurt someone who we perceive has provoked us is the sort of aggression which might be costing us a lot. In poker, the effects of this are more indirect and we often end up hurting ourselves (player us and rest-of-life us), which was my sort of half-baked idea with "Violence at the poker tables".

Take masculinity

Yea, it definitely wasn’t my aim to diss masculinity! My beef with cultural norms is that all too often we are supposed to conform to a narrow definition of masculinity (winning, earning, stoic, independent, dominant, avoiding intimacy, etc.). I wanted to suggest that some of the cultural norms around masculinity are up for grabs. We can give ourselves room to ask What fits? Do any of these expectations of how we are supposed to be as men match up to what’s important to us? Where do they clash, and where does that leave us? This can be at a lifestyle level (e.g. What is it about being men which says that we are not supposed to show weakness or ask for help?) and at a gameplay level (What do you think might be in our training as men, to respond with anger? How are ‘real men’ meant to deal with anger?).

TRUEPOWER 8 months ago

Hey Sam …. Really great video man, puts your mind into deep thought when we think about these complex mental games we play with ourself at and away from the poker table.

TRUEPOWER 8 months ago

A lot of the time, when I’m going to play poker, I like to be in an even keel emotional state, we’re if I’m too high or too low on myself I know I’m at risk of not playing my best. Controlling our emotions and understanding that somethings that happen at the table we simply don’t have control over.

But

We’re on a downswing or we’ve lost 4 or 5 buy ins “ oh I’m terrible at poker, unlucky I must suck”

When we’re up 4 or 5 buy ins “ oh I’m a poker god let’s go “

lol both of these I think we’ve all thought at the poker table at some point, but it’s results oriented thinking.

TRUEPOWER 8 months ago

One hand, I’ll share where a opponent made a mistake and was very upset with himself

One hand, I had 64d in the bb

Two limpers I check

Flop 75Q rainbow

Checks around

Turn j
I lead out for $15

Utg1 calls co folds

River was a 5

I bet $40

He tank calls,
I show 64

He insta mucks!!!!

He was like "oh wait"

I say "HE MUCKED"!!!

He immediately got super angry and slapped the felt lol

He was so angry was banging the table

He left like 20 minutes later visibly upset

Learning about how important it is to stay level headed at the table, not to get too up or too down,

Not letting things bother you

But I was all in a pot yesterday, and I could noticeably tell my heart rate was going up, and intensifying as the hand played out, it wasn’t because I made a mistake or anything just my body’s reaction knowing I’m either going broke here or doubling up lol.

I think breathing is key in these moments

Also, regardless of what happens, understand that no matter the result, it’s out of my control, win or lose, because to play this game, you have to accept and be okay with losing at times.

Sam Forde 8 months ago

An old memory, but it has parallels with your story. I was in a live game SRP IP and my opponent accidentally exposed his cards OTF. I was so caught offguard by the situation I misread his hand thinking he had top pair. I shut down and didn't make any attempt to bluff with my Ace high. I just checked back on turn and river and mucked my hand. He showed K high as he sheepishly collected the pot. It was the strangest situation. He was confused about why I'd checked down while knowing his cards. I was confused because i didn't understand what I'd just witnessed. As I registered what had happened I got super embarrassed and angry at myself for the mistake. Not long after, I needed to reload. I went up to the cashier and they told me to wait because they were organizing entries for a tourney. I got all pissy about the customer service at this stupid casino and stormed off like a diva. All that to say, a disappointment embarrassment frustration combo is great for getting the anger and blame party started.

TRUEPOWER 8 months ago

Kinda like a domino effect that’s unfortunate. One negative thing like that happens and it can ruin your whole session or put you in a pissy mood

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