J9c rant,ur comment is pretty off.( u said that u should raise even wider if you can make + cev calls after u raise.) it honestly mindblowing:) ur calling off the rest of ur chips at lets say 35 % eq.
Joppiesaus, think of it this way. If everyone has 20bbs and is reshoving or folding, we are making a mistake by opening J9s as david alluded to in the video. If everyone has 8bbs and we dont have to fold to anyone we have a profitable raise/shove. The logical conclusion of this is that for each person we are priced in to calling a shove from, our expectation increases as we get to realise some of the showdown value of our hand. Just because we have 35% eq vs a shove, doesn't mean its not a +cev call if we are getting 2:1 or better.
I ran some numbers through the nash raise/fold calculator giving everyone a stack of either 20bbs or 8bbs and it looks like we need three 8bb stacks before opening J9s utg is +ev. With all 20bb stacks its -0.04, with two 8bb stacks its -0.01, three 8bb stacks is +0.01 and to take it to the other extreme with all 8bb stacks we have a +0.08 raise/call vs everyone. I am interested to hear about the math you are highly advising.
Does your guys' model include calls? I was messing around in CREV (should use hm resources but I don't have it on this comp) and it seems like if J9s is the bottom of your raising range then people still get to jam on you around 10% apiece. And the BB is usually calling for this price too. I'm just surprised this is going to be a +EV open with 8 ppl behind.
Ben, I was using the example of our opponents only reshoving or folding to demonstrate the concept Dave was covering in the vid. The holdem resources calculator does let you account for calls but it takes forever to run a sim and spits out rly weird results cos it assumes every pot is checked down and stuff. J9s isn't a standard open with 8ppl behind but each person that has a stack we can call increases how wide we can open as we are essentially shoving on those stacks and get to realise equity more often. I also don't see how the bb calling wide is a big problem with J9s. Maybe the sim I ran is slightly out but with 4 20bbs stacks behind and 4 8bb stacks its certainly an open.
jopp, i apprecaite all comments, and im glad what i said is both opening and blowing your mind!! that being said, what math would you advise i do? The "ur calling off the rest of ur chips at lets say 35 % eq." type of math?? when there are people you can profitably call allin with any hand, when you would to fold for an allin of all your own chips because they are short, the open itself is more profitable! it actually doesent take any math, its pure logic! now to know at what point you want to call these all in's profitably does require both ranging and calculating equity vs said range, which is kinda math. anyway, i stand by my statement, though i have much to learn about the area. its good that you have your mindblown by learning knew things! its also funny. just think of how you can jam wider and wider blind on blind the shorter the stacks are, this concept also applies to raise/calling, the shorter they are the wider you can do it. and the shorter the avg stack is behind you (avg isint perfect, bc 5 5bb stacks and 3 150bb stacks would be a great spot to open relatively light) the wider you can open profitably, in general. i dont mind being corrected, and i sure dont mind discussing poker concepts, and i dont mind being wrong! but in this case, i must hold to my previous truth, in fact you have cemented my beliefs with your bewilderment :)
what is the actual unit holdem resources calculator is measuring the results with? Its obv not cev, actually not sure why they dont do it in cev, find that better
22:30 k9s. U saying that this is a shove and u r right because hrc is showing that. But its only ev+ by 0.02bb. Do we really want to take that small ev+ spot in tourney that soft as warmup? We are utg+1 with little over 14bb and i think even have to put bb and sb in next 2-3hands we still have a lot of time to wait for spot with bigger ev that 0.02bb. What do u think about that?
hey David, thanks for doing this video even though the first attempt got nuked. TILTING. I hope that all your future videos continue in the same format as Rough Sunday (part 2). Basically - just do you, because the poker knowledge and wisdom that comes through is AWESOME. Thanks. < 3
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J9c rant,ur comment is pretty off.( u said that u should raise even wider if you can make + cev calls after u raise.)
it honestly mindblowing:)
ur calling off the rest of ur chips at lets say 35 % eq.
i highly advise you to do some math
Joppiesaus, think of it this way. If everyone has 20bbs and is reshoving or folding, we are making a mistake by opening J9s as david alluded to in the video. If everyone has 8bbs and we dont have to fold to anyone we have a profitable raise/shove. The logical conclusion of this is that for each person we are priced in to calling a shove from, our expectation increases as we get to realise some of the showdown value of our hand. Just because we have 35% eq vs a shove, doesn't mean its not a +cev call if we are getting 2:1 or better.
I ran some numbers through the nash raise/fold calculator giving everyone a stack of either 20bbs or 8bbs and it looks like we need three 8bb stacks before opening J9s utg is +ev. With all 20bb stacks its -0.04, with two 8bb stacks its -0.01, three 8bb stacks is +0.01 and to take it to the other extreme with all 8bb stacks we have a +0.08 raise/call vs everyone. I am interested to hear about the math you are highly advising.
Great video Dave, love how engaging you are.
Does your guys' model include calls? I was messing around in CREV (should use hm resources but I don't have it on this comp) and it seems like if J9s is the bottom of your raising range then people still get to jam on you around 10% apiece. And the BB is usually calling for this price too. I'm just surprised this is going to be a +EV open with 8 ppl behind.
Ben, I was using the example of our opponents only reshoving or folding to demonstrate the concept Dave was covering in the vid. The holdem resources calculator does let you account for calls but it takes forever to run a sim and spits out rly weird results cos it assumes every pot is checked down and stuff. J9s isn't a standard open with 8ppl behind but each person that has a stack we can call increases how wide we can open as we are essentially shoving on those stacks and get to realise equity more often. I also don't see how the bb calling wide is a big problem with J9s. Maybe the sim I ran is slightly out but with 4 20bbs stacks behind and 4 8bb stacks its certainly an open.
jopp, i apprecaite all comments, and im glad what i said is both opening and blowing your mind!! that being said, what math would you advise i do? The "ur calling off the rest of ur chips at lets say 35 % eq." type of math?? when there are people you can profitably call allin with any hand, when you would to fold for an allin of all your own chips because they are short, the open itself is more profitable! it actually doesent take any math, its pure logic! now to know at what point you want to call these all in's profitably does require both ranging and calculating equity vs said range, which is kinda math. anyway, i stand by my statement, though i have much to learn about the area. its good that you have your mindblown by learning knew things! its also funny. just think of how you can jam wider and wider blind on blind the shorter the stacks are, this concept also applies to raise/calling, the shorter they are the wider you can do it. and the shorter the avg stack is behind you (avg isint perfect, bc 5 5bb stacks and 3 150bb stacks would be a great spot to open relatively light) the wider you can open profitably, in general. i dont mind being corrected, and i sure dont mind discussing poker concepts, and i dont mind being wrong! but in this case, i must hold to my previous truth, in fact you have cemented my beliefs with your bewilderment :)
what is the actual unit holdem resources calculator is measuring the results with? Its obv not cev, actually not sure why they dont do it in cev, find that better
Finals can wait new betudontbet vid is out. Also free boosie.
Haha, huge compliment, thanks!
Worst video in the history of online poker.
j/k <3
Glad someone follows directions! Thanks guys, more coming soon!
Great1! enjoyed of all the imaginary examples
thanks very much damian, many more drills and random scenarios to come in future parts!
puhaha, thanks for the great entertainment David :)
Mr. Emmons, you are singing awesome :D
Hello
22:30 k9s. U saying that this is a shove and u r right because hrc is showing that. But its only ev+ by 0.02bb. Do we really want to take that small ev+ spot in tourney that soft as warmup? We are utg+1 with little over 14bb and i think even have to put bb and sb in next 2-3hands we still have a lot of time to wait for spot with bigger ev that 0.02bb. What do u think about that?
very good question/point, and i agree with your implications.
hey David, thanks for doing this video even though the first attempt got nuked. TILTING. I hope that all your future videos continue in the same format as Rough Sunday (part 2). Basically - just do you, because the poker knowledge and wisdom that comes through is AWESOME. Thanks. < 3
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