Heads Up PLO8 & NLO8 Hyper Turbos
Posted by Cory Mikesell
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Great video!
Really interesting how GTO play looks like for rather unexplored games and to figure out how to incorporate it in practice.
I am curious how the full plo8 HU preflop strategy looks like - are we protecting our limping range with some l/r or is it a rather linear approach and we just have to deal with a limping range that mostly lacks of AA and A2?
Also how the 4b ranges look like , I imagine that many AA are not strong enough in terms of equity and playability to justify a 4bet and ABBL or ABLL hands make up a big portion of that range .
Postflop is a different beast since there are so many parameters in terms of frequency, sizing, response, follow up etc....
I am dabbling from time to time in some NLO8 tourneys and wonder to what extent the limp or shove strategy would work out. I imagine since ranges are tighter and more players are left to act there is room to openraise to a small sizing and fold to a shove and shoving becomes more of an option the fewer players are left to act ( mainly from BU and SB) .
Would you mainly agree or have some additional thoughts?
Well besides I would say your hypothesis on the open questions during the video are pretty spot on, so nothing to add on that side...
I'll need to rerun the PLO8 tree to answer your first questions. As I recall, you were right that all AA can't 4B. I think there will also be some protection of the limping range because the purely capped strategy just allows OOP to raise way too often.
Regarding NLO8 tournaments: So I ran a HU 25bb sim. I suspect that as I increase the stack depth beyond 25bb, the shoving should decrease and the 3xing should increase. We're just starting to risk too much and huge overbets reduce OOP's MDF to the point where he will only have to call very strong hands at say 50bb. A similar effect should happen with multiple players since the defense is shared. When we are in the small blind in 6 max and it folds to us at 25bb, we probably shove a lot and limp. On the button in 6 max at 25bb, we have to shove less than in the HU sim I suspect, maybe half as much while also having a 3x range. Then we add ICM and shit gets even more confusing lol.
I would love to see someone test this out and see if my intuition is right of if I'm just flailing.
I have been on the PLO8 heads up grind for the past year. Even though the overall equity for IP might be less, I actually feel being IP in PLO8 is more important than any other game. The option to peel a free card in o8 is so massive, given how much the dynamic of the board can change on the turn and river. Equity denial is the name of the game, and being able to put more pressure on your opponent by being IP is critical.
Some heuristics I use:
I never limp pre, only 3x or fold.
For flop cbetting in SRP IP I bet half pot on all paired boards, monotone boards, LLL and HHH boards, and pot on everything else.
As a general rule of thumb, when I am OOP I am looking for excuses to check, when I am IP I am looking for excuses to bet.
It is critical to have balanced check ranges OOP because the check/raise is the best equity denial tool for OOP. There will be a lot of range checking in 3bet pots for OOP.
The key to success in PLO8 is understanding when you can deny your opponents one-way equity by putting maximum pressure and creating lines that force him off of one-way equity.
Absolutely fantastic content and presentation.
Thanks man, I felt I like was going out on a limb with this video because the games are obscure. Glad to hear you're finding value in them.
What solver are you using for these mixed games?
Also, what's the public solver for 5 card PLO?
I did this video with Monkersolver
Thanks :)
Super interesting stuff! I've been playing these NLO8 HU Hypers quite a lot lately - mostly for fun, I'm not sure what sort of ROI I can achieve in them - and am curious about the limp or jam preflop strategy.
I saw you ran the sim with either limp, pot raise (3x) or jam as the preflop sizings however 2x open raise would be more standard for HU hypers in general; I wonder if you were to re-run the sim with 2x instead of 3x would Monker start to mix limping with 2x opening or still stick with limp or jam. I'd run the sim myself but my PC isn't powerful enough to do so.
So in NLH, a small open does seem better, however I know that in PLO hypers, a pot open tends to be best. I suspect that will be true of O8 as well. Basically, it's hard to push many hands in our opponent's preflop range to indifference when we min raise in omaha games.
Okay that makes sense, thanks! So you think that the 2x size would be ignored by Monker if you gave it the option?
Yeah that's my suspicion based on testing various sizings in normal PLO, but would need to test it to really make sure. The high low games are definitely their own little universe
That does make sense but i do wonder if the hi lo nature would cause a 2x strategy to be used.
more mixed games content please Cory! :) PLO8 would be great, and some real hands would be nice too. Great video as always.
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