Poker in 2019
Posted by Patrick Sekinger
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Congratulations on making to elite, u're definitely worth it!:)
great stuff bro
It seems like you purposefully omitted your results in zoom games. I do know you don't play them very often, however I have seen you complaining about how you run in them, so when I see them omitted when you show results, I would expect an 100% chance of you having lost money in them, maybe to a point where your winrate would look significantly worse in the overall sample. Don't take this as a personal attack, but if I am correct I don't think its fair to the audience to ommit certain results when you are trying to use your recent results as a form of gaining credibility as a coach. You could argue "yes I'm losing but its just meaningless sample and they are not even my main games", but if thats the case there would be no reason to ommit them in the first place. It's common knowledge that zoom games are signifcantly tougher than regular tables games, which you said yourself in your video, so again ommitting them serves no purpose and just make you look suspicious.
well said!
I think the biggest issue we have on RIO with the coaches is that there is no transparency with regards to results. I have said this before and 'called out' a couple of the coaches for making 500z videos despite never playing the stake except when they make a training video. this gives the impression to the viewer that they are watching a good/winning player at those particular stakes, and thus they are being duped. coupled with the fact that the higher level of coaches on here are labelled 'elite' then I would assume that the vast majority of viewers would believe their coach to be beating the game they are playing in/commenting in.
now, I am not saying this is the case with Patrick, nor does it really matter to a certain extent. but all we want is transparency so that when we watch a coach we know if we are watching someone who is beating the stakes they are playing, so that we can attempt to model certain parts of our games on them. doing this when they are, in fact, a losing player is a farce because the viewer may have adopted certain plays/a playing style that is not even a winning one.
I am happy to see that it is not just me attempting to 'police' these forums and that some of the coaches care enough to comment, and not just pick up their pay check after making another mediocre live play session video and don't log on to the site until it's time to post the next one.
I would make it part of the terms of contract for full disclosure of a coaches results. the good thing that this will do is to scare off the break even/losing coaches cos they wouldn't want to be found out. so it would benefit everyone involved :)
Hey Demondoink . Ever since I became a coach for the site this has bothered me quite a lot. For example, I'm regarded as "essential" when I play 500z games everyday and yet we have "Elite" coaches that only play those games to make videos. It is unfair to the audience, it is unfair to the other coaches, it is unfair to Rio itself, because they are paying for content to be produced.
Rio business model is quesitonable to being with, as there seems to be a preference towards quantity over quality, which (to my limited knowledge) seems suboptimal from all perspectives, SPECIALLY when we are talking about so called "elite" level training material. And on top of that, it's extremely easy for coaches to ommit results, potentially even fake graphs, produce videos on stakes they don't even play in or beat.
I am a very firm believer of transparency. So I felt the obligation to chime in with this comment, given that I see very few people doing the same. When you become a coach for a training site, you should expect to receive criticism, a demand for honesty and transparency, not to mention a demand for high quality material. After all, your position is one of great responsability, as a single video can have an impact on many careers and lives at once.
Again, please Patrick Sekinger don't take this is a personal attack. I know it can be hard but all I'm doing is exposing a potential problem that should be addressed.
Interesting. I'm going to leave a comment as a pure observer since I don't know anything about the pokerstars scene (since I am in the US) and I can't really have any idea who plays in the 500z games regularly (nor who is winning at them).
I definitely agree that transparency is pretty important, and I would like to see the results at zoom if we're going to be parading our results as a means for listening to our coaching.
That said,
I'm not really sure "playing those games everyday" is really what matters in determining "elite" or "essential" content in my mind. In my mind, "essential" content is the stuff that's aimed at a slightly more beginner type audience. Take Carroters for example -- I have no idea what stake he plays, but it's clear his content is aimed more at people just trying to take their game seriously and his content should definitely be "essential" because it's most beneficial to those viewers. While, on the opposite end of the spectrum I feel someone like KRab or Uri Peleg seem to be targeting people who have already thought pretty deeply about the game before and hence their stuff is more useful to "elite" members.
Of course, this is not necessarily a defense of how RIO chooses who are elite and essential video makers. To be frank, I definitely don't think they're always right and there are some "essential" video makes that I watch all videos from and plenty of "elite" video makes that I just completely disregard when their videos come out.
\I also want to point out that I think people tend to conflate "quality" of the video maker with whether it should be "elite" or "essential." I don't really agree with that (again, I think Carroters makes fantastic videos as an example). It should be more of "who is your material useful for."
Finally, just to make sure I'm nice and diplomatic, both psek1 and saulo have been making pretty decent videos to watch recently. I won't comment here publicly and further than that.
Saulo Ribeiro haha I had no idea that you were an essential coach tbh I just assumed that your content was elite. I think it is perhaps because you are a more recent addition and that when you joined the training site as a coach your main stake was 200z iirc? other guys such as Francesco Lacriola were producing elite level content for a while before they were upgraded, taking time and effort in to making very good videos and then you look at an 'elite' video and it's just a 30 min live play where the guy only plays the nuts and isn't interested in incorporating tools such as PIO in to their videos.
I guess it can be more difficult for the people running the site because they are not professional poker players, and are not grinding every day on Stars and able to see who is playing what games etc. also, it's probably harder for them to judge the quality of the content, because pretty much ALL content on this site could be deemed 'elite' to a more casual poker person. so I guess we have to cut them some slack, to a certain extent.
however, people join this site to become the best poker players they can be, I am not paying $100 per month to be entertained, I wanna get better. imo there are still some excellent elite coaches, to name a few I would say; Francesco, Tyler, Sauce, K-Rab. I also enjoy Dr Luck and Chaps, but I find these videos a little more entertaining than thought invoking. I think because the aforementioned coaches are normally more theory focused. apart from that, unless I have accidentally missed someone out, I think that the others could easily be cut. imo you have to offer something unique as a coach, if you don't then you are expendable and we shouldn't carry passengers just because someone has been a coach on this site for a number of years. as we all know, poker evolves and someone who was crushing 3/4 years ago can be breaking even/losing today.
fwiw, with regards to you, you are at the opposite end of this spectrum where you have moved up in stakes in the past couple of years, and look likely to continue doing so. Patrick Sekinger seems to also be in the same boat, so we cannot fault this 'promotion' imo except that we can just ask for full disclosure of results. cos I've played some hands with him at both 500z and 200z this year iirc. not many, but some.
what I would like to see in a coach on RIO;
1-full disclosure of results, at least once per year (either at the start or the end of the year would make most sense.)
2-a coach who is hungry and wants to learn/move up in stakes.
3-a coach who varies his content and doesn't just spurt out a live play every other week with no effort in to content creation.
that is all I ask. if someone doesn't meet a particular point in this criteria, imo they should be cut and replaced by someone who does.
EDIT: I mean those 3 factors should be what I see in an ELITE coach. I think it's fine if a 100z coach isn't bothered about moving up because he can improve the relative beginners before passing them on to the Elite coaches. I see no problem in this because they have a target audience and are not trying to dupe anyone.
EDIT 2: forgot to mention Nuno as well, he is also one of the better Elite coaches imo.
Yes I'm aware of all of those things, perhaps the way I phrased it made me sound bitter :D I'm already negotiating a potential upgrade with Rio staff. Of course I understand there are many circumstances involved with a "promotion". My comment was just to address the stakes played issue that you mentioned.
radtupperware I don't really want to expand too much on this. My comment regarding the essential x elite discussion was based purely to address the issue that Demondoink pointed out. That said, I do need to address one comment you made:
With all due respect, it does not really matter what you individually think, but rather what is the criteria that Rio staff uses. When I approached them a few months ago asking about what would be the requirements for being an elite coach, the response I got was that I would have to be playing 80% of my volume at 500nl+ and that I couldnt just play lower stakes and make videos on those stakes (among a few other things were mentioned as well like community reception). I have a print of the conversation, but not sure whether its appropriate to post here. So by far, the most important criteria in determining what is the coach level is the stakes they regularly play. That's why you almost never see essential content at 500nl+ and never see elite content below 500nl.
Anyways guys, lets get back to the original issue, which was transparency with regards to ALL results.
This sounds good to me, expect maybe point 2 which is debatable but has merits. 1 and 3 are musts.
Poker in 2020*
it's still 2019...
I meant would be nice to see video like that right now
Surprised that I have to make this post whatsoever but I think it is important to address based on the above posts that Saulo Ribeiro has made.
Firstly I am going to start off by stating that I agree wholeheartedly in transparency of results of coaches that are making videos on the site. I think it is important to do so as it enables the audience to understand the quality of the content that the coaches they are watching are providing. Believe it or not, this is exactly why I showed my results in the first place - so that the viewers know my winrates in the games that I will be producing content for.
This brings me to the next point that I think is relevant here. As you say I do not play zoom games regularly - and I very rarely produce any RIO content relating to zoom for this exact reason. I havent played zoom in the last ~2 months (and I dont plan on putting much/any volume there in the near future) and this year it has accounted for just 17% of my volume. I was showing my results to the RIO audience relevant to the games and stakes I am currently playing as well as the content I will be producing as an Elite coach.
Now speaking of those results, you make the claim that:
I'm not going to lie to you, in the small sample I have played zoom I have not done as well as I have at regular tables, however my winrate is positive and as aforementioned it is a fraction of my overall volume and my winrate globally this year is still close to 6bbev. Please see the below screenshots for evidence of this. Additionally, I'm not sure of my runbad complaints that you evidence - I have 0 recollection of this and we have never spoken to one another off the tables although we do have mutual contacts?
https://gyazo.com/51a93306b73e82bb46543d3ed699ebcd
https://gyazo.com/51a3e1b55104be8a49adf756d10c1f1e
In fact, since I start all the games I play Ive played nearly half my entire zoom volume in 3H reg only lineups with v.strong results as can be seen here. For both samples the classic 'lol-sample' issues exist, but hopefully this should clear things up for you. I highly doubt you would question that a 3H reg only lineup is tougher than the equivalent zoom results?
https://gyazo.com/4718f184ff30b063b2206a2919ee0b90
Finally I want to sign off with a comment regarding your personal decision to make your post in this thread. Regardless of how many times you say 'Don't take this as a personal attack', when you make statements such as 'I would expect an 100% chance of you having lost money in them, maybe to a point where your winrate would look significantly worse in the overall sample.' these are personal statements to my detriment which tarnishes my reputation within the community. You made this a personal attack by saying those things and phrasing it in the way you did.
You have multiple available methods of contacting me personally to speak about this matter if you felt so strongly and allow myself to address the issue. If I'm being honest with you a lot of your anger seems directed at RIOs hiring policy and other Elite Coach statuses which you feel unjust. Once again, a more dignified way of addressing your feelings would be speak to the relevant members of staff in a private manner rather than in another coaches' Elite introduction video.
You made these statements in an undignified manner by going through unprofessional channels, in doing so dragging my own reputation through the dirt (imo) unjustly. The truth of the matter is this; Whilst playing 200nl reg tables as my main game this year I was the biggest winner on pokerstars with a winrate of >7bb whilst starting all my tables. I have maintained that winrate now moving up to 500nl and the content I produce is largely for an audience of players in those games. Not only was your assurance of my '100%' chance of being a loser over my zoom sample incorrect, I feel my reasons for omission were valid (albeit shortsighted in retrospect) - something you would have realised if you had contacted me personally and discussed the matter in a more private setting.
Hey Patrick, Just to give you some blessings.
No matter the results, you are very good at teaching and make strategys very applicable. You do you, and that's more then enough. Thanks for your work �� Stay Hard!
don't worry Patrick Sekinger your reputation is not dragged through the dirt lol. imo Saulo Ribeiro was just addressing an important issue that most of the coaches/staff on here don't seem to deem very important, and that is the transparency of results from the coaches. showing your best results is not transparency, that is just cherry picking. if you allow yourself to brag about being the 'biggest 200nl winner on Stars' then you gotta take the rough with the smooth, and show that your results have not been up to a similar standard in other games, such as zoom. this won't detract from those results, it just gives some perspective.
thank you for posting your entire results, that is all we wanted. nice results and congrats on getting the upgrade to an Elite coach!
Demondoink Sure, but the manner, tone and method of communicating this is beyond questionable.
Picking your best results to show is not exactly "transparency", it is a bit misleading to the clients of RIO.
And It is very logical to assume that you did not show zoom results because your winrate drops.
As saulo did.
The way he addressed this matter is a different topic. Probably he could have chosen a better way to speak.
Also,on the images you show us in the comment,it is under Alias. Can you please show only PS zoom results?
You say that your do not produce zoom videos and that is the reason you did not show all the results,but thats irrelevant in my opinion.
They way you think and teach poker should not change because it is zoom.
That is not an excuse.
I also think elite videos should be content of high quality that target mainly mid-highstakes audience. Not "lets record another random session without imagination and not explaining anything properly , so that we get the paycheck" (Like some other coaches do).thats not about you,I havent watched any of your videos tbh.
But I did watch this one, your first "Elite" video.
Do you really claim that this "Poker 2019" video is the high quality content we would expect from an "Elite" video?
I would say it is entry level content and also thos topics are
discussed in many other Rio videos.
Was talking about this kind of stuff your best choice/effort??
I hope its just a bad choice and you will create many greater videos from now on.
Do not be like other coaches that produce low level content every single time.
Good luck for poker 2020
Dimitrios Ballas
I understand why it might seem like this, but it was not my intention to be deceiving.
Those results are only from PS zoom, the alias is because this is my lifetime results DB where I have played multiple sites, sorry if this was confusing as you can see here PS is the only site ive played fast fold poker on:
https://gyazo.com/d29fe5f33a7c9e9508303ff16445acc5
Sorry you disagree with the content of this video, however I think that many people can take a lot of value from what I say here, particularly aspiring professionals which I assume a large portion of the audience are. I hope my future efforts are more up to the standard you'd like to see.
this doesn't make a ton of sense to me, surely making a video that is catering to 'aspiring professional' is what an essential video is for? since when was Elite content aimed at 'aspiring professionals'?
I realize im way late to the party here, but how were you able to know you were the biggest winner at 200NL? Im not doubting your claims at all was more just wondering if that info WRT winrates at differnet stakes was publically availabe either thru stars or some new age PTR?
Also, you completely owmed Saulo when it comes to handling issues in professional and respectable manner. Cheers for taking the high road which just greater illustrated what an absurdly pompus and jealous sounding post from Saulo. Im actually kinda surprised RIO hasnt removed at leaat his original post consdering how drenched in bitterness it is as well the just out right false claims that he's 100% sure about. Dude really could not have come off as more of an elitest sounding tool and his comment alone shows me enough about him to know that i will be watching precisely 0% of his videos ever.
Sorry for the derail/tangent i more just wanted to know about how you knew you had highjest WR
Great results psek, much deserved promotion to elite.
Unbelievable move from Saulo here, of all the other coaches (elite and essential) with questionable results you chose to call out psek, for not posting 70k hands of zoom. Psek's results are the most publicly available and can IMO be trusted the most (because he plays reg tables).
Very sad to see as Saulo is IMO one of the few other coaches worth watching.
Really enjoyed the video - very inspirational for all those chasing the dream
Hey Patrick Sekinger . I will address some of the things you replied:
I think the vast majority of poker players can agree that 17% of your volume is NOT a negligible amount. It is actually a significant amount. And you did make the decision to ommit exactly the hands in which you have signifcantly worse results. In reg tables you are making 6+bb, in zoom (At 200+ which are your main stakes) you are making 0 in the sample. This was exactly my point since the beginning.
Another thing that has caught my attention is that now you are showing results from an alias of "all sites", when in the video you showed results for pokerstars only. Again, this looks weird to me.
I considered talking about this issue in private, however I do not think it is fair to handle something privately with you when you are making the video for the entire audience. Why can't I question what you are saying/showing on your video in your video thread? That seems way more fair to me. Obviously it is not pleasant to you, and definitely not to me as well, as its impossible to please everyone and some people will see me as out of line. That is the price I pay as well. Also, I'm not only a coach, I'm a viewer as well. I watch rio videos to improve my game, and in that sense I have the same rights as anyone else to question something that I watch.
I'm sorry you feel the way you do, and again it was not my intention. I think Rio is at fault here as well, and I'm already in contact with the staff. But as Demondoink said, if you want to claim that you are "the biggest 200nl winner" you should have no fear to also show to the public your much poorer zoom results. And yet, you didn't do that. You made a decision, and you cannot transfer the responsability of that decision to me. I did not drag your reputation; if your reputation suffers any harm it will be in the consequence of the decision you made, which I questioned giving the circumstances.
Very glad to see you move up to elite, your prior videos where the only essential videos I watched because of their great quality. Showing results is important and I agree that it help to see all the results but getting promoted to elite has (obviously) a lot more to do with quality of training content and yours is outstanding.
Patrick Sekinger
Perhaps your next Elite video could focus on Professionalism and Respect - centered around how to not get so deluded by your own ego that you would think it is acceptable to critique and undermine colleagues and the company that you work for in a public forum without knowing the relevant information or contacting them privately beforehand.
Disgraceful behavior but you responded with dignity and humility. If Saulo Ribeiro cannot find value in the poker content itself, let's hope he can at least take a lesson from this exchange. Clearly there is a lot to learn...
That is very unfair for saulo.
Its too obvious you are biased.
You gotta chill.
When dirt is pushed under the rug, it's always in private, always.
I salute Saulo for having the balls to make this judgment call and questioning it publicly, having the consumer/student in mind.
It always baffles me when a consumer criticizes the one who exposes possible shady things for him to see; it feels like you want to be duped.
Saulo, in your first video on here you showed your results at 200nl only... despite having been playing 500nl for a couple of months at least (if I recall correctly).
Why was this? Were your 500 results not upto scratch? Did you never play any 100? Why did you not show that as well?
This has gone way beyond what I expected it to go.
Although I still believe my point to be a valid one, I realize now (though I didn't at the time) how some of my motivation has more to do with my dissatisfaction towards Rio and their policies.
Also, not everything that is valid intelectually can or should be said in public. Trying to be the most honest I can, I struggle with identifying these situations and indeed I learned something today. I don't know why but I have a hard time being empathetic towards other people and this has shown itself once again. I can't justify saying or doing anything just because it's valid from a rational point of view.
I apologize for my behaviour Patrick Sekinger , rio viewers and staff. I talked a lot about fairness but there are multiple ways of dealing with this situation, and many don't involve doing what I did and don't cause the stress that I caused.
I will address whatever issues I have directly with Rio staff from now on.
there's no need to apologise imo. sure, you probably could have worded your original comment to be a little less abrasive (leaving out the losing player at zoom thing) but apart from that you brought up a valid point with regards to the clairvoyance of coaches results.
we are here to improve and get better, not be as nice as we can to avoid people ever getting upset. imo not enough people voice their opinions in the comments sections, so when I see someone else doing it then it can be quite refreshing. of course this doesn't mean just being rude for rudeness sake, but it means that, if you have a valid point/concern, then you should ABSOLUTELY say so in the comments section. after all, what is it for?
I appreciate the post - and being this open and honest takes a lot of guts so kudos for that.
I deeply respect this comment. I must admit i really disliked your first post just because the way i must have made Patrick feel. I have always liked when people come to me in person if someone have issues with the job i make. Lets bring eachother forward not backwards as a community. Finally i want to bring an advice from a dinosaur if i may?: dont act when you are hot and pissed of guys. Wait untill you are cooled down. When you look back, 99,9% of the time you would be happy you did. After all we are into strategy arent we? But again, Saulo: RESPECT
You’re not happy that you are still an essential coach and that others whom you perceive as weaker than you may be. You’re not happy with how much you are getting paid for the content you make. I emphathize with that. But this was not handled properlly, you can either quit coaching for RIO to stop dealing with this, or you can keep on coaching and paying your dues knowing that one day eventually you wil be rewarded. It just may not be as soon as you like and not as great a reward as you expect.
I agree with Saulo and Demondoink here there's nothing to apologise for. I'm disappointed that Patrick choose to play the victim with "your tone and method" nonsense.
People move away from Zoom games to regular tables because regular tables only stay open for any reasonable length of time with a rec involved which of course makes them far easier, but I'm not paying for Elite content to have a coach show me how to beat fish looking to punt off a cpl hundred.
I don't think an elite coach should be losing/breakeven at the zoom games but it's up to RIO to decide what the criteria is.
Are you taking the piss? Zoom is not his main game and he not losing there anyway. You know zoom results are the easiest to fake, right?
He's battling 3h with anyone at 500 every day and has good results... also posted likely the very best 200nl results of anyone on Stars this year.
How about ask those guys who he's battling with if he is good? Or actually watch his videos and decide if he is giving good strategy advice...
60k sample not close enough to determine if he’s BE/losing in these games
Hi guys. Never nice to see it being thrashed out unnecessarily. I think you all have valid points, just probably could have been handled more appropriately. Glad it seems to have been sorted. I’m gonna give my thoughts on a few things I read, hopefully to help clear some things up.
Transparency is essential imo unless you’re someone like Sauce lol, or you can’t for some sort of legal or personal safety fears. That’s why I posted my results mid way through the year, and my overall 2019 results are coming soon. They’re down on 2018, but I show all results and explain reasons behind them (good and bad), such as tougher games, table selection, mental game, session timings (eg 9-5pm uk time arguably lowest ev time), and outline future goals/approach change to improve my game and content.
It could be argued that Patrick’s zoom results are irrelevant if only producing content at reg tables, where he clearly has credentials. However I think it’s best to post all the results and explain this reasoning. Everyone has unique skills and the fast nature of zoom isn’t best for some people’s personality. Also, I don’t necessarily believe the best players are the best coaches (and vice versa). This goes for any sport or industry. For example, articulating what you’re thinking effectively to the audience is a skill in itself. But obviously there’s some correlation and credibility is required.
As for content - RIO advise about your content production to make sure they have a broad range of live play, theory, pio etc for subscribers (not sure if same for all coaches, some will have more scope I’m sure). For example they want me to do 500z live sessions as my bread and butter. If people don’t like those videos then I have no issues as understand everyone learns differently. There’s plenty of varying elite content for them to switch to and I think RIO do a great job in this regard. I always ask for feedback and if there’s a recurring theme or I have an idea then I’ll go to RIO and ask if I can do something different - which is always a yes in my experience, which again makes them brilliant in what they do. So always provide feedback to coaches if you think of something that’ll benefit you and the audience. And any major problems people have with the service or an individual should be raised with the powers that be. I agree that messaging the coach privately with an issue should come first, and then go public or inform RIO if they ignore it and it seems suspect. But in general the comments section should be for effective poker chat relating to the video.
I do think the points made about guys only playing 500z for purpose of a video when their real limit is 200z is a bit shady and that’s something that needs to be addressed directly to RIO imo. But don’t jump to conclusions because for all you know there may be personal reasons why people aren’t playing a certain limit and not just that they aren’t good enough - eg money issues after buying property, investments, frame of mind after a bereavement, etc. Even just a better hourly rate in a certain time zone/session time.
Hope this helps and we can all move forward effectively as a network. I’m always happy to chat if anyone has any issues or advice for my content as I’m keen to improve it and do the best job I can, which i think goes for the vast majority of coaches.
As a footnote fwiw, I think both you guys (Saulo and Patrick) make insightful videos so keep up the good work!
Cheers and Merry Christmas to you all!
Gary Chappell completely agree with your comment with the exception of;
I feel like if you have just suffered a family bereavement then you shouldn't be playing poker at all anyways, so that goes without saying.
however, if you are unable to grind a higher stake because you have invested in property, or are simply focused on playing vs the weakest players and obtaining the highest hourly, then imo these are NOT Elite coach credentials. that's not to say you can't invest or game select, but when it comes at the expense of the content (which is why everyone is signed up here) then why should we accept such lame reasons for only grinding 500z when making a training video?
it sets a dangerous precedent when we start to prioritise non poker related issues over poker ones when creating poker content on a training site. the less someone plays at a higher stake, the more they play vs weaker players/fish, the more they stagnate/regress, and the quality of the video decreases.
I don't want an 'Elite' coach trying to teach me plays when he just bum hunts the 200z pool for a higher hourly.
Think coaches have to show/give their recent results for subscribers. And they decide for themselves do they want to watch/learn from this coach or not...
Obviously is someone breakeven/losing longterm he shouldn't be teaching how to beat the games.
As far for values(elite or essential) go, probably it is not for users to decide but can provide feedback now and then.
Zoom is not his main game because he can't beat it, and the results demonstrate that.
He can't really fake a cpl hundred K hands of Z500 results when multiple coaches/players on this site are regulars in the game. Are you suggesting that others have been faking results?
Saulo instincts were correct in that a significant portion of results were omitted because they would damage his winrate, if Patrick is going to say things like " it's just 17% of my volume" then he should have no issues with including "just 17% of his volume".
I have no idea what you're talking about saying he's battling 3h with good regs every day when his filtered 3h graph has him break even in the 10k sample at 2/5. Not to mention that a 10k sample shouldn't be enough to qualify for Elite status anyway.
You have no idea if he has the best 200nl results on stars because the very best regs play in the zoom pool which aren't tracked (that I know of).
I don't think break even at zoom and winning in regular tables is elite worthy but again the criteria for elite content may be different from person to person.
"Zoom is not his main game because he can't beat it" loooool ok conversation over
Congratulations on the elite position Patrick Sekinger
If you have an issue with other colleagues or how RIO operate in future I recommend bringing it up privately, some of the comments made here were not done professionally. This should have been a congratulatory video for Patrick as we welcome him into elite.
Look forward to seeing more from you Pat, good luck at the tables.
(And happy holidays everyone!)
Thanks my man, means a lot
Huge stuff, agree with this. Nandos soon lads.
nice results Patrick Sekinger, congratz on the promotion !
Props for winning all that money during your fulltime job to make sure everyone plays in triangles and squares and plays an equal amount of blinds ;).
Lmao this made me chuckle, thanks for the kind words
This is easily solved by adding another tier of RIO membership "200 and 500 zoom" where elite level content cannot be stumbled upon by the zoom pool and accidentally consumed with the abundance of high quality zoom content already available.
Was a big fan of Patrick's videos even before I joined the team. Cheers and congratulations on the promotion.
Thanks mate!
Did this video get so many likes for the content or the argument in the comments?
the arguments. as a way of support I guess.
oh and of course the fact that he just got promoted to Elite status as a coach.
I have been playing professionally for 10 years and I think this was a good video. Looking forward to more videos. I also enjoyed your the essential videos I have watched from Patrick
Thanks Tuning !
I agree that figuring out whose strategy advice to follow can be difficult, but full disclosure of winrates has reverse implied odds for the coaches and likely is a fairly weak indicator of coaching strength, because over a yearly sample, we can't statistically distinguish between 1bb and 4bb winrates and bumhunting has an out-sized effective on winrate.
There are three results from showing my yearly results:
1) I have a spectacular winrate. Now everyone is focused on how to reverse engineer my game, like people dissect Linus or RedBaron. This is clearly a net negative for me as a player. Additionally, if the winrate is due to game selection, I will get more competition in my games. This can far offset any income boost I get from coaching.
2) I have a low winrate. Now even after many years of success, players don't want to watch my videos or get private coaching, because I'm a dinosaur. The thing is that every single player will have a bad year at some point in their careers, because a 1bb winrate and 6bb winrate can't be statistically distinguished from each other over most yearly samples. Additionally, game selection has an absurd impact on winrate (but not hourly), so Runitonce would actually be selecting for coaches who mega-bumhunters.
3) I have Goldilocks winrate, it's not too high and its not too low, then people are content with my ability to play and coach, but aren't going to copy my entire approach to poker.
The only scenario where I win is if I hit the Goldilocks zone. Otherwise, its -EV to post.
very insightful
Good points!
Just wanna add that the skill level of the average RIO member is really high (at least compared to other training sites). So between members' own discretion and the feedback in the comments section (where other coaches and more advanced members often comment), this should (to some extent) mitigate the problem of figuring out whose advice to follow.
In fact, I think there's a good chance that the average skill level is so high precisely because RIO's model benefits those who are skilled enough to recognise good advice when they see it. Taking in different approaches, resolving conflicting advice to fit into one's own framework--that's what learning should be about. And I don't think making coaches show their graphs contributes to this in any significant way.
Just my two cents, probably not the best place to say it, but just wanted to lend some support to an unpopular opinion haha.
Hi Tyler, my posts have been in relation to 500z which is not going to be easy (or even really possible?) to massively bumhunt whilst getting any reasonable volume.
Non results question.
How many tables you think is decent to play these days(2020)? When rakeback is gone on few big sites, doesn't make too much sense to pile 3-4 rooms and bring those 12 tables or etc.
Do you think it is rather better focus on few ones?
trying to find balance ~ and talking about above nl200 stakes
I think it will depend a little from person to person - probably not an answer that you were hoping for. Theres a couple of reasons I think this.
Ultimately, you should see where your strengths/weaknesses lie and what your personal poker goals are (move up stakes ASAP, maximise hourly, maximise winrate etc). Personally I find my sweet spot is 7-9 tables across 2-3 sites where I am achieving good hourly whilst still being able to execute my gameplan well and maintain focus. I would say on average for most people trying to focus on fewer tables will be better than mass tabling, especially when you include future ev from moving up stakes faster if you have higher winrates in your games (lower table count should aid this)
Hi Patrick,
Great video and impressive results. I agree with table selection being the single most important factor especially with the increasing rake environment. The integrity point also hit home given that Absolute Poker still owe me over £1k - thankfully I got most of my funds out about before it collapsed but not sure why I left so much money on a untrustworthy poker site! I wish I'd seen a video like this 10 years ago.
Personally I'm coming back to poker after a few years away due to working in London and playing golf at weekends/spare time. Admittedly my game is rusty, I played most of my volume between 2009 and 2013 when games were clearly much softer (on PS mainly 50nl where I won at around 4.5bb/100 over c.400k hands - I did not track my results on Absolute Poker because this was before I had HM but I won a similar amount albeit the games were much softer on there, rake lower and my edge bigger but that was mainly at 10nl to 25nl). I was overly cautious on the bankroll front when I was at university and my biggest regret is not playing more and moving up quicker when the games were so soft! However, I'm now moving back home and getting a local job so can play a lot more poker and golf - thankfully I also have more money than in the uni days which will encourage me to move up the stakes provided I can beat the games at a decent rate again.
In terms of sites you play on, I note that Stars now has a 4 table cap on ring games so which other sites do you play on? Also do you play 6 or 9 handed tables or both (I like ante games the most tbh)? I'm not interested in playing zoom which as you say is very reg heavy and not enjoyable IMO due to the lack of game dynamics with such a large player pool. I've tried Party this week but that is more reg heavy than Stars. I live in England.
I also noted that you said you tend to play more during the day but I have always found more action at the evenings so have tended to favour that time. I appreciate that the girlfriend is a factor here :)
All the best for the New Year and keep up the good work.
Elliot
I know this question was aimed at Patrick but I will also give my 2 cents.
9 handed cash games are dead now, nobody ever plays them and only ever will if a fish sits at a 9 handed table for some reason. I don't think sites such as Party Poker even offer 9 handed cash games on their site.
Ante games are for sure more fun (the antes create bigger pots, and you get to play more hands/wider ranges cos the good pot odds you get to enter the pot) however these also don't run very often. Paying an ante every hand means that you also pay rake every hand, which is not a good idea given the fact that sites such as Stars are effectively offering 0% rakeback.
So I would avoid ante games as well, unless you are playing on a site that actually offers raekback (such as PP.)
Party is very reg heavy, but you get rakeback so I would still stay open to playing on there, but only when the games are good and be prepared to end a session early and play on a different site if your tables are exclusively regs. So just be more selective about what times you play on PP/make sure to game select as far as is possible (you can't see the players but you can tell from playing vs them who is a fish and who is not within an orbit or two.)
I would stay open to playing on zoom. Don't worry about dynamics or any of that, you are here to make money not to play in a tennis match vs one opponent where you figure out each others weaknesses etc. Zoom is often pretty soft in my experience cos it's easy for fish to load up a table and play very quickly. Again, just game select and don't play when the reg/rec ratio is too high and you will be fine.
good luck!
Hey Elliot,
I think that stars regular games due to the 4 table cap are pretty soft, particularly at micros so would definitely check them out. This especially appears to be true of the 9-max games which run quite a bit 200nl and below and often have >1-2 fish per table (I have a couple of ideas why this might be, partly due to some 6-max regs not playing 9-max). Unfortunately ante games dont seem to run very often which is a shame since they are more fun to play, but the rake is even higher there so not the end of the world.
I think the tradeoff between game selection and getting rb is particularly important when playing micros due to the rake being so high. I'd say that trying a couple of sites would be worthwhile and seeing how you find the games - as Demondoink said, PP might be 'reggy' now but rb is good and their network is acquiring traffic from some big UK bookmakers in 2020 so games have the potential to improve. Other sites worth trying include RIO poker (Good rb and some soft games with edges to be had due to unique STP format!) /iPoker/MPN/GG network although I dont have experience on all of these. I wouldnt rule out zoom entirely either, there is definitely money to be made there and the grind is especially convenient relatively speaking.
Being based in the UK I would also suggest that exceptionally early mornings (5-7am) and Euro evening periods are the best to grind.
Hope this helps and GL!
Thanks Patrick and Demondoink for the feedback which is very helpful. Over Christmas I have played c.15k of hands on Stars and can certainly say there is no shortage of fish especially in the 9 table games! Noted re rakeback on Party which is clearly a problem these days with Stars (I don't quite get the treasure chest stuff).
I am due a laptop upgrade as my Sony Vaio is still running on Vista which does not support RIO and some other sites so that is a must in the New Year! I have played on my other rather slow HP laptop in London however and enjoyed playing on RIO and the STP was a neat addition which seemed to create a lot of action. I hope the site does well long term.
Cheers guys.
that's interesting I never even realised that 9 handed cash games ran any longer lol. like Patrick says, I doubt many 6m regs would want to play over there so that could make these games very profitable.
the chests on Stars are just a gimmick to make you think you are getting more rakeback than you actually are. a couple of years ago I was getting around 30% RB on Stars when I was a Supernova, now it is around 1% so is effectively 0.
fwiw I strongly recommend buying a computer as opposed to a laptop. this means that if you get PIO in the future you will be able to run it and store sims etc, something that you cannot do on laptops. my PC tower was around £1k and I just went for the one with the most memory in PC World, but this was a couple of years ago so probably a bit cheaper now. monitors are pretty cheap (I bought a new one the other week for around £150) and then all you need is a keyboard/mouse etc. i'd suggest a gaming keyboard, just a lot nicer to type on and is tilted to sit in a more comfortable position, as well as a gaming mouse and a decent mouse mat, not some foamy pos haha. the speakers it doesn't matter, I have like £10 ones from Argos haha.
your set up will definitely affect how you play, and so having a comfortable chair is probably the most vital aspect for grinding online poker. this initial investment will more than pay for itself in the long term if you stick with poker and keep studying/working on your game.
Thanks - for the pointers. Agreed Stars are taking the Michael really.
Will definitely get a good PC tower. I already have a big Dell widescreen which my laptop is hooked up to via HDMI cable and nice chair but definitely do need the PC asap especially with the likes of PIO and HM running. Good advice on Keyboard and gaming mouse too.
Hi Patrick. Just watched The video. Great stuff. For me it was cementing The A-game course to my subconsious Even more. I was part of Elliot roes mindset academy, and have been trough The course 3 times. Highly recommend going trough it multipple times as well as The «inside The Mind of». Nice to see how you respond to The comments as well. Good Learning too. Keep up the good work and you WIN every time. Again- great video. 9 out of ten from me
Great to hear you've gone through it multiple times @kalasjnikov. Mindset is lifelong process, so you'll find different parts of the course will hit you differently as you progress. Sounds like you're taking a great approach to this area of the game.
Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the kind words!
Elliot's course is definitely of high value, I'll endeavour to go back through it in 2020 as suggested, gl at the tables!
Yes i feel The material in The A-Game course is so good that there is no reason to look around anymore. Much more value in going over multipple times, and most importantly implement. Elliot im Egil btw, and thank you for book reccomendation on FB chat. Really helpful stuff!
Glad you're getting value from the course so far @psek1. Thanks for spreading the word on the importance of the mental game. It's one thing for me to tell people how important it is, but it's even more powerful when it comes from coaches such as yourself and @phil. Awareness has certainly spread over the last few years, yet it's still very much a niche topic in the poker world.
I think that will change a good bit in 2020, as more and more players see the impact it can have on their game and life. There is still a good amount of first-mover advantage available, and those who get in early will be glad they did.
I used Primed mind at first, then Headspace for a good year. I like both, but lately i have developed more interest i hypno and will Get back to The primed mind app Really powerful stuff
Hey, Patrick Sekinger - Congrats on transferring to Elite! About 3 months ago I made a comment on one of your videos about how you would inevitably become an Elite coach purely due to the quality of your content, so it is nice to see that RIO, as well as yourself, share the same sentiment. I look forward to your next video, keep up the great work, and congrats again!
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