PROvsPRO Elite Invitational (part 2)
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The 55 vs 86off hand is a great example of how well agression can pay off, even if the initial purpose of the bet is contrary to the actual holdings and read, it can achieves favorable spots for the bettor.
Everybody putting Jens in terrible spots
Jeans nitting it up with two cards, great video once again.
Playing plo makes you hyper aware of hand possibilities
Best format ever!
@Lucas 35:52 Isn't it a bit of a loose call there with KTo? Sure you have position but you play a pot with zero dead money since the SB will also come along which makes it hard to realise your equity. Especially with Purecash having a pretty strong range. Also there is still 5 people to act that can bluff you of your hand and your hand plays quite poor multiway. Interesting spot because it doesn't come up that often that you have to define your range after an open limp.
Ya it is loose, I think its probably fine though, I gotta draw a line in the sand somwhere, I'd fold k9o and I would never fold KJo so idk, I think its probably fine.
I'm also kicking myself about that k5 fold otr, started counting out all the bluffs he could have and than folded, oops.
Nice video guys, innovative format
Nick, can you explain more of your thoughts behind your limping strategy? thanks!
would be nice if "betudontbet" could go into more detail about his sizing on river at 14:40 w JJ.
However, my intention would have been to bet way smaller (like 300 or so), esp to give any weaker pair a fairly easy call. I dont see any weaker hand call 810 chips there, or, obv., any better hand fold.
U said that he should find a fold w Q10 etc. there, however, as you checked back flop, i dont ever see villain fold a Q there. Only hands he could have trouble calling with would be KK or AA, which are not really in his range due to flat pre.
He might even call Ax for 300-400 on river i guess. Ofcourse your intention of betting so small is quite obviously a blocking/fishing bet as described above, however, it is then easer for you to fold to a jam and villain is just soo tempted to just call w his weaker hands.
what do you say about that? what important things am i missing in this spot?
greetings from austria
David says QTs is still in his own range on river, not that someone will fold it river.
@James/Andy - What about jamming the river w T9s vs his capped range ?
First hand, 55 vs 86o, I don't agree with valuebetting 55 there and I certainly don't agree with folding 86 in general. It's tough to comment about this though because I don't know the dynamics and what they're thinking about eachother. I just feel like jeans is gonna have a lot of showdown value on the river and K-high is close to worst hand in his range, so he doesn't have to call with Kx necessarily, and jeans has a lot of 8x in his range. And folding 86o seems very optimistic without a strong read that villain is not bluffing enough.
87o 3bet versus jeans: bad hand to 3bet imo, and he said the reason himself: it's very uncomfortable for him to call, and I would not expect jeans to have a calling range there, so 87o has no value for 3betting. K2o is better.
Very nice check with A6o 28:00 on the river.
"Guys, open seat at 100/200 PLO!" LOL
Cool video. It shows us that 10 guys who are all very succesful at poker, can think (sometimes very) differently about situations, and there are multiple ways to be succesful at this game.
more hands, less dylan mispronouncing "you're with me, leather"
hahah, yes that is the correct pronunciation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27rewithme,_leather
Learning to fold rivers to any and all bets at 100% frequency.
And your pots be monsters, come on James!
@Setherson
You say Ah3c is a cbet on Kd8s2d
Why do we ever wanna bet a hand as strong as Ace High here? Ace High should be a prime check back and instead bluff the hands with less equity. Also we dont really catch ANY good turn barrel cards.
OTT you say that its one one of the worst hands in your range. But Ill say thats a wrong assumption. Since when you bet A3o otf, you will also bet hands like Qx, Jx, Tx, 7x, 5x (+ all the other Ax, which havnt made a pair otr).
Flop seems like you are overbluffing and as well on the river. If I didnt know, that you were a RIO Elite Coach, and just saw the hand and heard your reasoning, I would say, you were a fish :)
I like the flop cbet, my range is v wide and making me fold hands like 89o is a victory relative to checking, particularly because while a hand like AdQx could be a bluff catcher and play well as a check, a3o, will not play well at all as check, if we face any action.
As for the river, I will bluff a pair of 2s, so most of my range for checking is kx and 8x, some two pair/sets, low diamonds and any other diamonds i opt to bluff catch. I think that while seth's range will include q7s, etc a3o is pretty near the bottom it has no sd value otr, and I think that you are right seth can easily be overbluffing here (which is why I almost called top pair), I think so long as you don't bet all your air 100% it doesn't rly matter if seth bets otr here with a3o or 74o they have the same showdown IMO.
It doesnt matter if you have the best hand now if you cannot induce and call bluffs later. And this is a board you will not get played back at too often.
LOL at fish diagnosis from that cbet. Gonna be hard to bluff catch A3 no backdoor fd. And nice to have a "bluff" that gets to realize >10% equity vs top pair of kings. I'd imagine the EV gained relative to checking with this hand is greater than with a hand like T6hh vs lucas' style, which it sounds like you'd love to bluff.
Clearly getting killed so far :D. I guess you look like a genius or an idiot making these kind of laydowns.. Had he been bluffing in the 86o hand it would have made me question my laydown a lot more. I'd be curious if someone made some more in-depth analysis about the valuebet, I never imagined 33-77 valuebetting as I have so much 2x,8x and some rare chkbckd Ax compared to the times I decide to call K-high. Also I don't think he'd be opening 82,83,84 and 85 against me but I could be wrong. Without any history I felt like bluffing with that sizing would be very unlikely as it looked very much like I have showdown value. So if that's the reasoning it comes down to whether he is bluffing enough for the pot odds I'm getting.
I haven't made in-depth analysis about the hand, but I have a strong feeling that you both played the river badly. Valuebetting is super optimistic given the reasons stated above. Sams reasoning for valuebetting is not good, he said that "jeans has more Kx than 8x in his range", so he assumes that you call with Kx often, which should not be and is not the case obviously.
Your fold with 86o is understandable, but Sam and you are obviously both good players and you both know that, so I think it's too optimistic to assume that Sam is not bluffing often enough here. You also have a great bluffcatcher hand with the best possible blocker (8), since better 8x are the main hands that your losing againts when he bets the river.
These are just my thoughts and I obviously don't know the dynamics and your image of eachother.
Hang in there! Käytä suomalaista sisua!
Well I'm not sure how you define "bad". If he shouldn't be valuebetting worse and I don't think he will be bluffing that sizing in that particular situation it can't be a "bad" laydown. It's not like I'm at the top of my range, as I said I have all 2x, some Ax and a ton of 8+good kicker I'd have to call hoping he is vbetting like 89. And I'm not saying he is a bad player for not bluffing that sizing in that particular spot, even good players tend to play exploitable/unbalanced strategies in certain spots.
If i had 55, i would consider my river bet a bluff and not hope to get called by k high which i again would like to see bet turn as a float if checked to.
If you think that Sam is not valuebetting worse or bluffing with that sizing then your fold is obviously not "bad", it's good in this case. I'm just questioning if you have enough reasons to assume that he is not betting with worse hands often enough.
But like I said, I don't know the dynamics and how you perceive eachother, so it's pretty hard for me to analyse.
"I have a strong feeling" might be a poor choice of words. Replace that phrase with "I think, based on my point of view about the spot", that probably tells my message more accurately. :)
I like Jeans play here.. Would fold 8x here somtimes and call the majority. Value betting 55 seems optimistic to me.
If you're going to be folding an 8x hand here - the 6c is probably not the worst of the bunch to fold. Dem blockers.
I like jens reasoning for folding. And clearly the 55 bet reasoning not so good.
I feel like your fold is good vs any reasonable vbetting range. And if you can fold a hand as strong as an 8, Sams value bet seems far too thin and a mistake IMO
Another question : How many future parts are we going to see?
@Sam/Str8$$$ - At 37:30 you decide not to overlimp K8o getting a price of 80:280 or 3.5:1. If you were in the sb getting this price would you be completing with this hand? If the answer is yes then the question becomes why not complete this hand in position vs oop? Do you feel you don't realize your equity enough because you aren't closing the action and someone may squeeze behind?
I think these limp spots are interesting mostly b/c we don't see them too often. Everyone is so liberally defending their blinds oop these days getting a great price yet we are unsure (and by we I mean me) on what range to overlimp in position getting the same great price. Can you discuss your thoughts on this spot and overlimping spots in general?
Thanks and Great Vid!
I'd complete in the SB because i'd expect to see a flop a lot more often and i'd be getting a better price. In a world where i'd be getting the same price it would be as if there was a minraise instead of an open limp and i'd probably fold. As is I am still might not even have enough raw equity to limp here, even if i my r were 1.
Cliff:
- fold 78s pre but 3bet 89s sb vs button
- calling 5% of your stack with suited connectors is considered loose.
- people checking range are so much stronger in tourney than cash
- Yrwthmelthr continues to foil
cant understand what betudontbet is mummbling
Sounds like he was in a warehouse next door to our hotel room.
More generally, the audio quality among the players ranges from excellent to terrible.
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