ProView: Phil Galfond Reviews JNandez87 $5/$10 and $10/$20 6-Max PLO (part 3)
Posted by Phil Galfond
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This was a good series! Seeing solid play being performed, and talked about, is good for learning. A trademark of good players is that they make poker seem easy. JNandez' footage had that vibe, and it was enjoyble to watch.
Thanks, man! Agreed... he did make it look very easy.
hey phil
i had a general enquiry which i hope you dont mind answering sometime
like, i was watching some old galfond vids recently (like VERY old) and it got me thinking about 2014 Phil to 2009 Phil. Now from my perspective (microstakes player with the intention of attempting to be v good at the game) 2009 Phil was an incredibly tough player. However, from your pov you might think you were terrible in comparison from then to now.
Now I cant currently see a great deal of difference in how you play 6max NL or PLO from then to now due to the skill level I currently have (although I realise as I improve, using 2x vids (1 from now, 1 from then) I should be able to differentiate between your playing style (and possibly your ability (and possibly your thought process))).
So what I'm asking is, is 2014 Phil a MUCH better player than 2009 Phil? What things do you KNOW or DO different now than you did then? And placing Phil in the context of the top players in 2009 and 2014, do you think you've improved at a faster, slower or as steady rate as the 'game' in that time frame?
EDIT: The q I wanted to ask was (but forgot), where were Phil 2009's leaks IYO? Now if we assume you don't think Phil 2014 is the perfect player, do you still get the feeling like beginner players do, that every day you're a better player than the day before?
Thanks
Hey JohnCarter,
Really interesting, great question.
I think that 2014 Phil would win around 5bb/100 from 2009 Phil HU (if both don't know who they are playing).
I also think 2014 Phil (I just realized I could replace that description with "I") has a significantly bigger edge against the competition in a 6max game than 2009 Phil.
A lot of my skill in poker is reading players/situations and adjusting to tendencies, and I don't feel as though I've improved tremendously in that respect. However, as poker progresses and people try new things, we all collectively improve as a result.
I would say the two major differences can be generalized to:
a) Fundamentals &
b) Better understanding of ranges/frequencies
2009 Phil was way too tight and passive OOP preflop. His 3bet % was way too low, especially for HU play. He also c-bet too frequently as the pfr (I have done this a bit lately too and am working to improve it), and especially as the 3bettor. He didn't choose his bet sizes as well in certain situations (something I'm still working to improve at now), and he over-folded (and under-x/r'd) against turn continuation bets.
2009 Phil also got too aggro and stubborn on paired boards (not realizing the true frequency that you actually run into a hand). He also chose to play too much of his range aggressively on the flop (bluffs/value) IP, rather than waiting for future streets.
As far as how I've improved vs. the field... you could say that I improved at a slower rate than the field, but I don't think that's fair. My edge over the field in 2009 was much bigger than it is now because everyone had worse fundamentals. Back then, my ability to outguess my competition had much more value.
Today, with stronger fundamentals, I can't exploit people nearly as well by outguessing them. They are playing too balanced for that, and some aren't even attempting to guess at all, but rather try to approach GTO play.
I think my growth kept pace with everyone else's until the last year or so. PLO games aren't running often, and I've put energy into other games, therefore taking some energy out of my PLO game.
I still feel confident in my abilities in any lineup, but I really hope the PLO action picks up so that I can practice as much as I'd like to in 2014.
Thanks for the reply, Phil.
I have two more questions, if you wouldn't mind me asking:
1) By PLO games aren't running often enough, were you referring to 2-7 TD or mixed games? Or by any chance some nosebleed NL games?
2) What's your take on the status quo of NL and PLO games? Especially, do you think it is true that the GTO aspect of NL studied inside out at high stakes, while such is not true for PLO (at least not yet)? And although this might be a hard/unfair comparison to make, which regs do you think are more solid, if they are playing at the same stakes - for example, 5/10 NL regs or 5/10 PLO regs?
Thanks a lot in advance!
Q1...I'll answer for Phil: PLO = Pot Limit Omaha, so he's not referring to any of the above
Oh, I think I know PLO is a short for Pot Limit Omaha. He said PLO games aren't running often he's been putting energy to other games, so I was wondering what "other games" he was referring to.
Thanks for the great reply Phil
Just to follow up on the last poster, do you think PLO is on its way out? I know NL has had a major resurgence at High STakes but just for my own career, as much as I'd like to learn both to a high level I need to choose 1 soon. So 5 years time, online and live, do you think the Plo landscape will be similar to now, or is there a chance it could shrink?
But my main point, and was a follow up to your 1. It's kind of to do with 2009 Phil and 2014 Phil (sorry to labour the comparison), and it's quite difficult for me to explain. But I'll try. And it comes in 2 parts:
a) 2009 Phil had certain leaks in his game (according to 2014 Phil). Now as a result, when comparing each version of Phil that begs the question, if 2009 Phil was playing against an opponent with similar leaks would he have the awareness to spot them?
(The question only arises due to the possibility that he wouldnt/didnt) So at the same time, if it's not certain that 2009 Phil wouldnt spot these leaks in an opponent, then would you consider 2009 Phil as being capable of exploiting these leaks in an opponent who had them? Or was the strategy that you employed exploiting these leaks kind of unconsciously (I mean not unconsciously because that would imply some sort of intention I think) /kind of without you even considering them in an opponent?
b) Is that what 2014 Phil has that 2009 Phil didnt? An awareness of leaks in his and his opponents games, and an explicit strategy to exploit an opponent who had these leaks whilst minimising his own losses in the same situations.
The reason I ask part b), is due to the familiar comment that old training videos are not worthwhile anymore. IMO if there's a difference in 2009 and 2014 Phil's playing style and thought process then it's [Phil's entire back catalogue is] a treasure chest of information and ideas and implications waiting to be discovered and considered. Just from a narrator's perspective (and that's my English degree coming in). If you consider each poker training video as a kind of novella. Each version of Phil who's commentating as the narrator. And each piece of commentary and action as important to ... frequencies, strategies, whatever.
For players looking for recipes the value of old videos may deteriorate, but for anyone looking beyond that there's still good value in many older videos. 2009 Phil should clearly be a winner today well into the mid stakes at the very least.
Now, if someone were to go through the back catalogue of Phil vids from then to now, and rework the concepts into more compact pieces aimed at actually training skills in an efficient way -- now that would be pretty hot. I'm a bit surprised that no training site is doing something like this, and that players aren't asking for it either. But that's good for players who have actually done the homework themselves I guess ;-)
I'm on my phone, so just a quick reply for now...
2009 Phil was just about as good at spotting leaks as 2014 Phil.
The way we spot leaks is to compare the way our opponents play to what we view as the correct way to play, which (if we are logical) should be the way that we attempt to play.
Since I've updated my view of what is the correct way to play (based on an improved understanding of fundamentals), 2009 Phil was playing (and thought others "should" be playing) with worse fundamentals than I do now.
2009 Phil wouldn't have spotted his own leaks in other players because he didn't think they were leaks.
For example: If he saw an opponent fold the BB as often as he did (too often), he'd have thought in they were playing that spot well.
well, wouldnt it be good if there was a program where you could simulate a player (lets say Phil 2009 for consistency ;) ) and put him in artificial game and watch him react to certain scenario's chosen by you. if you were a maths wiz you could do this whilst making calculations and see what implications this had for his entire strategy, and if you ever played against a similar player the counter-strategies you should develop from these calculations would be golden.
i suppose the closest you can do is watch training videos and use your imagination or actually play against some1 and do this ;) (but play money games against good players seem so much more attractive when your bankroll is <4 figures :) )
EDIT: well when i say good, 2009 good.Hi Phil,
38:00. hand with JJ77 on AA7 Q. I have bluffing range on AA7 in 3bet spot but almost never continue with it on later streets. Maybe if I cath an openeder + FD. I know it could be easy to exploit, but can't imagine that bluffing turns could be profitable in a vaccum.
If I have to construct turn bluffing range, I would prefer to choose smaller sizing, and do the same with AQ and 77. But it could be easy outplayed by clickraise with AQ and KK and some floats (doublepairs).
How often do you cbet this turn with bare Ace with low kickers or AK. How would you react to a clickraise?
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