ProView: Paul Atwal Reviews noob155 at 10NL 6-Max Zoom (part 1)
Posted by Paul Atwal
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Hi Paul,
@38:40 the QQ hand in the top right, you said that on such a dry flop if villain cbet around 1/3 with the whole of his range that you would consider x/r this hand. When watching I thought I would never check raise mainly because villain has a range advantage on such a dry board with him more likely to have AA/KK than we are.
Thinking about it is it because QQ is going to be close to the top of our range when we flat the 3bet here and can still get called by weaker hands such as JJ/TT? I imagine bluffs in this spot would be hands like 54 with a bdfd if we flat those preflop?
What would you do if you x/r QQ in this spot vs a 1/3 pot bet and villain 3bets or do you think that's too unlikely to consider?
Thanks!
Yes. We're effectively all in with this hand on most run outs.
54s might be a little loose preflop, though I'd imagine that we could use some similar 3-straight 3-flush hands. It might be correct to use some AJ type (high card) hands as well. AK is probably just always a call.
I wouldn't be surprised if PIO just wants to GII. Flatting might be okay too. We are, however, going to end up with a very transparent range.
Ok that makes a lot of sense, thanks for the response :)
36:10 table 3 U think A5o, the pot odds does not compensate enough for domination issue? But u can still make a wheel and sneaky trip or two pairs. Is it confirmed folding a better play pre flop? Thx.
Obviously tough to gauge, but I do think it's likely just a fold. Our likelihood of making a straight is quite low. We're more likely to flop a dominated pair.
0:50 tables 2 QTo facing c bet on Q high dry. U stated x/r at a small frequency is ok. I think the play is very interesting. Recently I've gambled at zoom500 I notice some Russian and German player begin to x/r top pair more. One hand I played someone called 3 bet with KJ and x/r oop on J high. He 4 table z500, he must have his thinking. Can you elaborate why this play might be good? (Get value, punish villain cbetting too much?) Obviously put in tough spot when facing 3 bet or villain continues (call turn, arrives at river, do we bet? X/c? X/f?)
Also what sizing is more appropriate with the flop raising and turn betting (if any)?
Almost feel like u can do a video on this topic. Plz excuse my lengthy question.
For this specific texture in the video, I think we want to do some x/r to:
- get value
- protection
- deny equity (a bet/call, check/check line allows him to realize a tonne of equity with a HUGE portion of his range).
It's a dry texture on which he'll be cbetting a lot, so we're letting him realize far too much equity (basically allowing his whole range to see all 5 cards) by always calling. Also, because he's betting so much, he will have to continue with hands worse than ours (if he's not, then we can just start x/r bluffing him relentlessly because he'll be over-folding).
I'm reluctant to comment on the 500z hand without a proper hand history and given the fact that I don't play 500z. However, a lot of the same basic principles/reasons might have applied to that situation you described.
I have a bit of feedback, sorry if it's long. Interested to see what Paul says
@2:30 QTo on nl10 up to nl25 (at least) is just a clear check/fold on the river imo, it should be our default play. No bluffs in villain's range, and that's all we beat. Population tendencies and all... Also hero checked stats but only has (I think) <100 hand sample. It is pointless.
@16:50 Q9s I understand it could be an open but I doubt it is worth it to encourage this. Hero can easily improve by not coldcalling pretty hands: 53s SB v MP, and 75s CO v MP (even if there are fish behind). If hero widens up their RFI range it is likely to cause more problems that it is worth, especially given rake at this limit.
@34:20 I think it would be quite a nice spot to overbet ~13-15bb on that river. Obviously this villain probably snaps it off with 72o but really I think most people will stop stationing once you overbet, and villain is clearly capped to a pair-type hand which we can fold out. A normal bet will often get called by that though.
A couple of super easy leaks that hero can work on:
(1) coldcalling open raises-- tighten up, work on some standard ranges and don't deviate unless you have a good reason. also don't deviate TOO much (e.g. the 75s CC, it is just too wide).
(2) cbetting air-- seems that hero doesn't have a consistent cbetting strategy when it comes to air hands. Easy to fix - just cbet BDFD+BDSD, BDFD+2 overs, and then anything else we can just not bother on the flop. This will give a ~55% to ~60% cbet percentage which is much more consistent than check/folding e.g. SB v BB with 2 overs and a BDFD.
(3) cbetting weak TPs-- look for spots to check with weaker TP hands rather than inflate the pot. Perfect example is that 3bet pot hand with A9s vs the AQ that shoved turn. That leads onto point number 4:
(4) bet sizing in 3- and 4-bet pots-- as a default we can bet 50% pot in 3bet pots and 33% pot in 4bet pots. This is much more playable - we can get it in by the river if we like and we can get away without making "pot odds" calls when villain shoves. It's also a massive sizing tell and you probably generate a lot of FE from hands that you actually want calls from.
Hey K.
So you're basically only calling with 4x (which isn't very many combos), A5hh, and 65hh (those are the only straights you'll have)? You might be right, but that's an extremely strong assumption to make about the population for you to justify folding a hand this high in your range every time. How are there no bluffs? He's probably opening 40%+ from the BTN and cbetting a huge portion of those OTF. He can use any number of BDFDs and high card hands to fill out a bluffing range.
Sure, but I think the cold calling issue is entirely independent of this.
Not too sure about this. We don't rep a particularly strong range ourselves, though I suppose we do have a small portion that could over bet. I don't like the turn call however, and I think our blockers play poorly OTR for an over-bet.
Hey, nice video.
One question, if we use a size for our stronger hands and another one for our normal value hands on the river, don't you think that we could get exploit? Why do you say that in some spots we can use different sizings, I mean, what does make that spots different?
Thanks and keep it up
Hey rechach.
When I refer to using more than one sizing, the implication is that we use multiple combos (including bluffs) to balance each one. For simplification, imagine a situation in which you can split your value hands into two groups: nutty hands and pretty good hands. We then might choose to use two sizings in that situation to maximize our EV. Let's say we use 2x pot for the nutty hands and 3/4 pot for the pretty good hands. Now, even when we have a bluff in that situation, we need to be aware of what our value region looks like. That is, we have to make sure to bluff using both sizings. We can't just always bluff using 3/4 and leave our 2x pot range completely unbalanced.
In addition, we need to occasionally include our nutty hands in the smaller bet size range as well in order to prevent villain from being able to easily raise all of his hands that are worse than the nuts but better than our pretty good hands.
9:20 57hh
What if the 3 bet was normal size and CO cold calls, do we still flat?
Just going in to a 4 way, 3-bet pot OOP with 7 high feels kinda risky, not going to be fun to play a big pot. Unless it´s a straight.
We should definitely not be cold calling against any sort of normal 3bet. This seems very marginal even against this small sizing we face here.
You said 74s vs button open is a defend. My winrate really suffers if i defend those kinds of hands from BB. Cause i dont know how to defend a wide range oop? Could you make a video about defending vs steals. Like one of those pio hand anlysis... It would be awesome.
Thanks for the suggestion. I will definitely keep this in mind.
Nice video!
One suggestion, you should pause the video when talking about specific hands until you are done talking about each street of action. Makes it much more seamless and easier to follow as well as easier for you to focus on each action of the hand.
hi paul!! very nice video!! how can I apply for a session review like this??
Thanks Vayne.
email support@runitonce.com . I believe they keep a tab of people wanting to be reviewed.
@16:30 on the 36 Suited hand he also has a player behind who is on the big blind who could easily have Ax and straight draws/middling pair/bottom 2/top 2/sets
@11:30 with the 88 hand, wouldn't turn be a fold? UTG+1 range is pretty strong and broadway heavy or at least middling to stronger pocket pairs. He could easily be checking back his JX and QX hands here just like hero will also do sometimes to protect his range and/or induce a bluff on the turn from the opponent. the turn card comes a brick and villain now bets his QX/JX/JJ-AA/33 for value. I don't really see what villain would even be barreling with on the turn that is a bluff.. 10K? AK? 44-77? T9? I feel like his ace high and pairs TT and worse (2 of which are still ahead of us) are going to check back the turn as well hoping to get to showdown. If villain is a rec I can see maybe continuing but from a completely random villain and no reads I would be inclined to think this is a fold right? We are already most likely behind and we have 2 outs to really improve, while at the very bottom of villains range he has at least 8 outs, as well as outs (pairs) that he doesn't even know would improve his hand to one that is better than ours. TK hitting a 10 for example, or 9T hitting a 9. So in total villain really has about 12 outs. I just ran an equity calculator, and TK actually has almost 53% equity against 88 on the flop. We are only ahead of 9T here which is the very very bottom of his range aside from 77 and worse. Hero would need a read on villain that he basically has complete air.
Hi hihello,
I think your logic is a little bit backwards for the 88 hand. Your default assumption is that villain is playing an extremely unbalanced strategy and therefore we should play an exploitable strategy (over-folding) unless proven otherwise.
The KT equity calculation is also a bit misleading as you picked a hand with 2 overs and an OESD and showed the equity it would have OTF. Sure, he'll have this combo occasionally (though it probably plays as a bet fairly often), but it isn't an accurate portrayal of his "average" hand strength in this situation (especially when you're choosing to show its flop equity instead of turn).
He has a few combos that make sense as bluffs here such as weak Kx (e.g. K8s) and some suited connectors (e.g. 76s). I won't bother listing them out, as a bunch of them probably play as a mix. Also, though it might look like there aren't that many total combos that make sense as obvious bluffs, you have to recall your own point (his range isn't that wide to begin with; therefore, his bluffing range will contain fewer combos).
I'll grant you this, I don't think 88 is a high EV call in this spot; in a vacuum, it's probably not too bad to fold. In addition, I'd be happy to fold it with some reads (e.g. he CBF with too much air and leaves his check back range really strong). However, I'm not going to let these exploits be my default assumption.
What do you mean when you say I'm assuming villain is playing an unbalanced strategy..? The fact I said UTG+1's range is broadway and middling pair heavy? The QJ board connects with so much of their range... AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, that's 144 combos that are ahead of 88. That is not including 99-TT which would add another 12 combos. This is a good amount of a non-recreational player's UTG+1 opening range.
I'm not sure what you mean about the KT calculation.. KT is the very bottom of his possible range aside from 9T and 22-tt (of course he has some complete bluffs) so evebnn KT has more equity than 88 in this particular situation. So I'm saying just about his worst hand has more equity than us.
So I guess what I'm asking now is: why are we calling? What do we beat? We only beat literally complete air. There is nothing in his conceivable range that we are ahead of other than 9T, 22-77, AK... If he bets the river we are going to fold anyway, the only way we would continue is if we hit an 8.. If we don't hit an 8 and it comes a card that doesn't help his range and he continues to bet we still have a tough decision of whether or not he has a weak queens or king. The only way I see continuing here is if you know the villain is bluffing because of a read or you intend on bluff shoving certain rivers.
I'm sorry but your response left more more confused than I already was. I'm not trying to seem like a knowitall and show you up or anything like that. Just genuinely curious.
I was referring to the part in your original post where you said:
Assuming villain doesn't have bluffs is assuming that they're playing an unbalanced strategy.
You're listing out all the hands in villain's preflop range that have us beat but you're not taking into consideration the fact that we're on the turn. Sure, villain is doing quite well on this texture. Consequently, he's also cbetting flop relatively frequently (Pio has it around 60%). His check back range does not contain all those hands.
But we're beating those hands... we don't need to improve.
IDK how tight you have MP opening. I think the average reg is probably around 21% (which includes one-gappers down to 86s).
Here's a screencap of the IP's turn betting range after flop goes check check. https://gyazo.com/f0210356835e3a388bcbbec23d7d8965
The main bluffs he has are middling-weak Ax hands and suitted connectors/gappers.
Here is OOP's calling range.
https://gyazo.com/f162c16187e42cd17eb4067bc5b59b80
No worries. I'm glad that you're following up and asking more questions while detailing your thought process. I know tone can be difficult to convey over text.
Also, I'm in class right now so my bad if I missed something hah.
I was just re-reading what you had said about the KX and then read my post again and saw I was thinking there was a K on the flop, so I was like how is him betting with KX a bluff?? makes sense now. I edited my post and when I was finished I noticed that you had already replied.
And I also now see what you meant about the unbalanced range, I just felt like there are very very few complete bluffs. But to assume that means villain will never bet those hands is obviously not how I should be thinking.
before I saw your comment I was looking at a 22% opening range and I did see how weak AX hands could be bluffing here and a couple weak Kx
Just want to get into it a little more.. haha I feel bad because I feel like this is more than enough time to spend on one hand but honestly this one particular hand has a lot of good things to think about imo.
Anyway, according to my equity calculator an opening range of 21% doesn't even include 89s let alone like 67, 56s, and from what I've read online UTG+1 generally should be folding (except in position) all suited connectors excluding sometimes 89s, but for the sake of argument I'll add 89s and 78s.
AK, AT, A9, A8, A7, A6s, A5s, A4s, A2s, K9s, K8s, 89s, 78s
That is 112 hand combos of possible bluffs. So about 2/3 of the amount of combos compared to the amount of combos that have us beat.
So I do see now that there are more bluffs there than I had originally realized so it makes calling a little more understandable. However, the next issue I'm having with the hand is the fact that any card 9 and over will basically make villains hand one that beats ours? Any card over 9 that doesn't pair the board will complete straights or pairs, and obviously cards that pair the board will either not affect us at all or just put the villain even more ahead than he already was, but it would be hard to find a call on the river in my opinion with any card over a 9. Is this not sound reasoning? That is almost half the cards in the deck.
https://gyazo.com/d54e72c9c59ef5a7d6025a2f6d36232d
This seems like a reasonable range. I'm not sure how you're getting such a tight range, but the one I have here is 21.57%.
And yes, river will often suck for us with this hand. However, there are plenty of cards lower than a 9, and the range I'm using is not as tight as what you have (yours seems insanely tight).
IIRC from the PIO sim I did last night, villain does in fact bet river fairly often (I only looked at a few blankish rivers). Further, 88 does ending up folding. However, after flop goes check check and we check again on the turn, we just don't have enough better hands to be folding every time OTT with 88.
On minute 11 or so when hit top set of kings and villain leads lets say you flat in that spot and turn comes a club for possible flush, and he leads again do you shove or flat ? and if so what will you do on river if villain shoves
I think he has less than one PSB on the turn. I don't really think it matters tbh, I'm getting it in (OTT or OTR) at that point.
Hey Paul, great video!
I assume the Q9o speed fold on the BTN @36.51 is extremely tight and you just missed it?
Also what do you think of the donking @40:00 with the 7's vs UTG?
Thanks!
I do open Q9o on the BTN, but it is one of the weaker combos.
I'm not sure what we accomplished by leading 77 there tbh.
Watched both parts and really enjoyed the content. Thanks! I liked how you stress playing a more consistent game during the session.
One general question I had was regarding the HUD display, what is the best and easiest to understand video or resource to lean about how to effectively use your HUD while you play? I understand the basics of it, but I am trying to learn more about how to use it to play better.
Thanks for the great videos!
Hey d,
I wish I could be of more help regarding HUDs. There probably is a a video somewhere on RIO covering this topic, try searching for it or using the Learning Paths. As you can see from my live videos, I tend to use a fairly simple HUD. I'm mostly just trying to see if the player falls into any general category or has any blatant leaks. Most stats need quite a large sample before they can be of much use.
Hey Paul.
At the 7:30min mark you said something about your guessing that most players at these stakes wont have protected ranges... What do u mean by protected ranges? Can you elaborate on this? just not to sure what you mean.,
Thank you.
Hi Paul, what kind of HUD is hero using? Is this Notecaddy?
It is PT4.
I'm only at the 30 minute mark and I have to say Paul makes a lot of assumptions based on higher stakes games which won't work at NL10.
QTo: easy fold on the river after BU triple barrels, at NL10 you barely see triple barrel bluffs especially on that board (only a bd FD), it's obvious hero has a SD hand and BU still makes a big bet. BU will have overpairs, trips and fulls in that spot most often, even if BU has AT he will check back most of the time.
Also A9s hand: villain always has us beat when he shoves the turn, he won't have FDs or gutshots there, he always have AQ/AK/JJ/AJ, very few if any at all go broke there preflop with AK/JJ that deep. For 127bb effective stacks you will see about 0,1% of players bluff there on the turn with a FD or gutshot. Btw Hero should never go broke with that hand especially deep.
AT 23:55 you talk about table two: UTG don't have KK here almost ever because at NL10 99% of the population would cbet KK on that board, NL10 players don't think in terms of GTO and Piosolver, range cbetting and stuff like that, they look at their hand, they look at the flop and bet if they have it.
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